Eagle and the Minimums

[OldGreyEagle]

here's a thought

 

What if we respected each other enough to know that if a unit puts out an Eagle Candidate we all know that the boy has done everything he is supposed to and has fulfilled the requirements and lives the oath and law.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

What if we respected each other enough to know that if a unit puts out an Eagle Candidate we all know that the boy has done everything he is supposed to and has fulfilled the requirements and lives the oath and law.

 

I reckon we do. Leastways, I've never seen a scouter anywhere give an Eagle a hard time. Da reaction to kids is just what we find in this thread with kenk's son, eh? Congratulations.

 

These issues come up on da forums when people are askin' or wonderin' about what standards they should set within their troop to do right by kids. What makes for the best program, or how does someone improve their program. It's not about individual boys. So we give these fellow scouters advice to do what makes sense in terms of developing character, or to follow da requirements, or whatever. We're tryin' to help 'em help boys.

 

Now, I have seen boys not respect Eagles whom they felt didn't measure up or got an easy pass from da adults or whatnot. Again, that's an internal issue for a troop, eh? But it's vitally important for teachin' character and how we use the advancement method. If good kids like CrossRamWedge's son see boys gettin' Eagle on technicalities rather than real skills and character, it devalues and undermines the entire advancement program in their eyes. Really does awful things to the program, or it does awful things socially to the scout who got da "easy bye" that the other boys don't accept.

 

I've also talked with employers who no longer hire Eagle Scouts because of bad experiences with 'em. Da sense is that Eagles feel entitled and seem to expect others to do the work to make 'em succeed. They're not go-getters. Perhaps that's a result of da just-do-the-minimums approach to advancement, perhaps its just this couple of employers happened to have a bad run of kids. Still doesn't help da program or the other boys in it.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Oak Tree]

Some few athletic classes actually have the capability to do this now (determine who is to be held to a higher standard).

 

In the old world, the goal might have been to run the mile in 9 minutes. Athletes could breeze through it, other people would have to struggle hard to make it, some people couldn't do it. If the class is supposed to be about learning how to get more fit but they get graded on their time, the athlete gets a good grade despite doing nothing to actually get more fit.

 

They came along with heart rate monitors. (I highly recommend the book Spark for an inspiring description of this can work.) Now they can tell not just how fast you ran, but how hard your body was working. And they can tell you how hard you need to work in order to get a certain grade, or whatever (which is directly related to what you need to do to get more physically fit).

 

In the past, could the PE teacher have tried to push the guys harder? Sure. But it's a tough judgement call, and it can be painful when you get it wrong.

 

Should we push some kids harder? I don't really like the word 'push' in that sentence. We should motivate them. We should recognize that they can do more, and we should inspire them to do it. Not because they have to, but because they want to.

 

One of the big downsides to Eagle, in my opinion, is that it's pass/fail. People learn early on that if you're only going to get rewarded for passing, why should you try to get an 'A'? Even the 11-year olds can see that if they want to get Tenderfoot and/or Physical Fitness, there's no point in trying too hard on that first test.

 

Whatever you reward, you will get more of. Reward people for just doing the minimum, you'll get more people doing just the minimum. Reward people for running slow on the first test, and you'll get more people running slow on the first test.

 

Even if you figure out how to motivate some of the higher-potential kids to do more, it doesn't really fix the problem that boys will still look around, and they will see less talented/less well-behaved/less smart/less fit boys getting Eagle, and they'll wonder what it really says. The fact is, people can and do get Eagle for doing around the minimum. This encourages some and discourages others.

 

I'm not too worried about it. We're having fun in the outdoors, and we're learning and making great friends. That's enough for me.

[Jeffrey H]

"It is obvious that there is a thought that Eagle is too easy to get, that just meeting the requirements is not enough."

Meeting the minimum requirements for Eagle is not easy and requires planning, disipline, and work. Only 2% of boys that join Scouting will attain the Eagle rank.  Many drop out early after 1 and 2 years.  I congratulate all Boys that hit the Eagle Rank. Good Job!! In fact, I congratulate anyone that hits Star and Life. Good Job!!

[Oak Tree]

Jeffrey - I agree that earning Eagle requires perseverence, planning, discipline, and work, and that all who earn it should be congratulated.

 

Try as I might to restrain myself, I have to comment on the 2% figure. From the national website: "Eagle Scout rank is earned by only 5 percent of Boy Scouts each year." Note, that's not saying 5% of the Scouts who join each year, it's saying 5% of the active Boy Scouts earn it each year. (It's roughly 50,000 out of 1,000,000.) But most Scouts are members for more than one year - the average is probably more like 3 years. Eagle Scouts themselves have an average age of 17.3 years, so they've been in for a few, certainly. There are 636,104 Webelos Scouts, so maybe 320,000 Scouts cross over to troops each year. And certainly a few Scouts join for the first time as Boy Scouts. So I figure it's around 50,000 out of 333,333, or about 15% of all boys who join Scouts.

 

Now, we really beat this topic to death in the past, so I don't want to redo that whole thing. I just wanted to point out the 2% figure is too low today.

[sherminator505]

Whether you are talking about 2% or 5% or some other number, it is hard to argue that most boys who join Scouts are capable of earning Eagle. Most just don't seem to have the perseverance.