FCFY - is it really possible?

[SR540Beaver]

BP,

 

FCFY isn't about the boys keeping pace with one another and advancing in lockstep. As OGE said, it is more about a unit making the opportunities available within a year to cover all of the rank requirements. If a boy misses the campout where we specifically do the 5 mile hike for advancement, then he has to do it at some other opportunity. Kind of like x numbers of night of camping or x number of troop/patrol functions. If he isn't there, he hasn't done it. One kid never misses anything and gets it signed off in short order. The kid who wrestles or plays football and makes one or two meetings a month gets there slower. Regardless of how fast or slow the boy meets reequirements and advances, the program was in place to provide the opportunities to meet them on an annual basis. Honestly, it just ins;t that hard for a unit's youth leadership to come up with a year's plan to provide a successful program.

[Beavah]

The Second Class cooking requirement can be done on a campout concurrently with someone else serving as patrol cook for the First Class requirement

 

Not without subtracting from da requirements. The First Class requirement demands serving as cook for the whole campout, and cooking the meals that the scout had planned. The Second Class requirement also requires planning and cooking a meal, so they can't be done concurrently.

 

So the 2nd class requirement could be knocked out for a patrol of 8 in 4 campouts at most (and could even be reasonably done in 2) while the 1st class patrol cook requirement would need 8 campouts.

 

Yah, so now we're up to 12 campouts total, assuming perfect attendance and a typical dining hall summer camp. Oops, we forgot da Tenderfoot cooking requirement to assist with a meal. One would think, given EDGE and common sense that we'd have lads assist with a meal before planning and cooking a whole meal on their own, eh? Or a whole weekend's meals. So we have to add in time for that.

 

And remember, all this is just for the testing piece, eh? But testing is Step 3 of Advancement. Where was all the "demonstrating" and "guiding" and "enabling" pieces that we teach are necessary to complete step two of Advancement: The Scout Learns? Oops. Gotta add in those.

 

Which gets us back to how much coachin' and practice do we figure an average 6th grader needs before he can reasonably plan and execute a meal on his own? Or before he can reasonably plan and execute a weekend's worth of meals? What if several of those campouts are up here in da North in January and February? Are we lettin' boys solo on cooking their first time ever when snow campin'?

 

Now, I'll grant that a troop that runs patrol cooking at summer camp gets a big leg up here, eh? But those are few and far between. And mixed-age patrols make it easier, too, since you'll have fewer lads below First Class in da patrol, and therefore more time for instruction/assisting with meals/learning. But mixed age patrols, while allowed, aren't da recommended program anymore.

 

So I'm still tryin' to figure out how to do it as stated.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Lisabob]

Generally speaking, I've decided I'm not a big fan of FCFY because I think troops misunderstand it in the way that OGE described. But my son's troop adheres to it anyway, and some boys do make it to 1st Cl in about a year. (I think the norm is probably 18-24 months though).

 

THat said, let's talk more about the cooking issue. Suppose a patrol has 8 scouts. But not all 8 go to everything. More realistically, maybe 3 attend 95-100% of events, another 3 are a cast of rotating characters who each go to 40-60% of events, and the remaining 2 hardly ever go to anything except troop meeting nights.

 

So on a given camp out, there are probably 3-5 boys in a patrol, 3 of whom are the core. Those 3 will get their cooking requirements done fairly quickly. The rotating crew will cycle through more slowly but, when they do attend, of of those boys will probably get to cook because the core boys have already done so and won't mind a break from cooking.

 

Because advancement isn't lock step and because attendance varies pretty widely beyond the core group of boys, it isn't so hard for at least that core group to get a lot of practice and get their sign offs pretty quickly. Those core guys are typically the first to get to 1st Cl as a result. The rotating crew come along 6-12 months later in most cases. The ones who hardly ever show up, of course, are going to take a lot longer to get to 1st cl. (As are the ones who show up and do things, but aren't all that interested in getting their books signed.)

 

[BadenP]

It is one thing to teach a boy a skill, have him really learn it, then do it well, and then teach it to a younger scout, than to have a boy read it in his handbook and then do it barely able to exhibit it adequately for you. One is the scout way where the boy retains it, the second is just poor adult leadership, unfortunately most of the FCFY I have witnessed falls in the second category. The execution of the model is what leaves a lot to be desired in most troops. Remember this program was developed by National after a period of watching so many new scouts dropping out in their first year in an attempt to retain numbers,which it did not do. Like the 13 year old Eagle it is a McDonalds fast food approach to scouting, a lot of quantity and very little quality, IMHO.

[Horizon]

One way you don't have the problem of 8 6th grade boys is that you don't do a New Scout Patrol. We don't do that in our Troop, so across the 6 Patrols each one gets 3-4 new Scouts every year at most, and they tend to trickle in from February to May.

 

First campout - every new scout helps cooking a meal (or, in the really sharp patrols, all 4). The older Scouts in the Patrol teach the younger Scouts the Patrol favorites (cobblers, carne asada, breakfast burritos, chili). Tenderfoot cooking assistance is finished.

 

Second Campout, each of the new Scouts takes on one meal for the weekend (3 meals on Saturday, one on Sunday). 2nd Class single meal is covered.

 

Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth campout - each of the new Scouts should be ready to be grubmaster and lead chef for the weekend. Scouts who missed the second campout are the assistant as well. First Class is demonstrated.

 

Half a year, and you have had more than enough time for a boy to learn and demonstrate the cooking requirements. Now, this assumes everyone makes it to everything, and that the older Scouts do a sufficient job of mentoring. This is where having a mixed age patrol helps a lot, and having patrol specialities helps with patrol pride (the afore-mentioned chili for one of my patrols, carne asada for another, and grilled tri-tip for a third).

 

Once they do that, we like to toss Cooking MB at them as an option to really sharpen their skills. We also keep the Iron Chef battles going on a lot (the winner gets their dishes done by the Scoutmaster). We make a big deal out of food, so the boys want to learn and demonstrate.

[shortridge]

I really like the way some folks here have described FCFY, as a program framework that allows Scouts to earn it that quickly if they're so inclined. Not every Scout will, and not every Scout should. But no one should be held back from advancing because of the troop only camps six times a year, for example.

 

I was one of those SuperScouts. I crossed over at the Blue & Gold and had First Class by December. Looking back, the troop provided the opportunity, and I took advantage of what was offered. As simple as that. But there were other things that helped:

 

- I was already very much into the outdoors. I'd spent much of my childhood to that point exploring the swampy area behind our house, read every book I could get my hands on about camping and had been fascinated by explorers and outdoorsmen from an early age.

 

- I was chosen as PL of the NSP, which drove me to read my Handbook until the cover fell off, go to JLT, and practice, practice, practice everything I could in order to teach my patrol mates.

 

- I went to a great first-year camper program at summer camp, led by a crusty old Scouter who was a fantastic instructor (not a wet-behind-the-ears teenager).

 

- I took and completed Wilderness Survival MB that first summer camp. It was such an amazing experience that to me represented the epitome of Scouting - no-nonsense outdoor adventure. It fired my imagination and launched a passionate love affair with my local council camp that continues to this day. If I'd been "made" to take Basketry or Nature or some other badge because my SM believed young Scouts shouldn't take "tough" MBs, my Scouting career would have been much, much different.

 

- The troop had a very active outdoor program. We camped 12 months a year, come heat, rain, snow (we wished!) or high winds.

 

- My parents both joined the troop with me - dad as an ASM and mom on the committee. They didn't push me or clear my path - in fact left me alone to sink or swim - but having their support was crucial. They knew that Scouting was important to me.

 

- I had a fantastic Scoutmaster who humored my youthful barrages of questions and took me under his wing, even loaning me copies of his old Boys' Life magazines (the ones with real articles, and the Tripod novels serialized as comics - awesome!).

 

- I made mistakes and learned from them. Like on our first campout when my very hungry patrol was cooking hot dogs for lunch ... putting them in a pot over the fire ... one hot dog at a time. And the time when I packed in such a hurry that I forgot to bring pants or a long-sleeved shirt, and we had really high winds off the water and I had to walk around shivering in my plastic poncho. I learned then, and laughed later.

 

- But perhaps most importantly, by the time my Webelos den crossed over, we'd already done a lot of the basic T-2-1 stuff through Readyman and Outdoorsman - over and over and over. Tying knots and demonstrating how to stop bleeding is easy when you already know how to do it. And setting up an A-frame tent is a snap when you already made a plastic tube tent from scratch and camped in a bedroll for two years in a row at the annual den overnight. Earning First Class was actually pretty easy.

 

 

P.S. I never mastered pancakes, however. I still can't cook them very well 20 years later. Give me a good piece of french toast any day.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[nolesrule]

Beavah, you misunderstood what I wrote. The Patrol Cook is in charge of the patrol meals for the campout, but that does not preclude any other members of the patrol from also planning and cooking his own single meal on a fire individually during the same campout.

 

Unless you are suggesting that just because one or two members of the patrol plans and cooks his own breakfast or lunch, then the patrol cook for the weekend would not get credit because he didn't cook all the meals for every member of the patrol.

 

Even if that's what you are suggesting, well, I just re-read the First Class requirement in more detail. It only requires being responsible for one breakfast, one lunch and one dinner. So that still could leave one breakfast that every member of the patrol could do on their own (assuming a 2-breakfast trip) without overlapping with the patrol cook duties.

 

So it would still take 8 trips for every member to do the First Class requirement, but the Second Class requirement could be done in a single weekend, a single meal even, rather than the 2-4 I said before.

 

I really wasn't intending to argue specific requirements. I stand by my original thought that a well-planned program should be able to make available all T-2-1 requirement opportunities within a 12-month period. It's up to the troops to make the plan, but it's also up to the scouts whether or not they want to take advantage of ALL the opportunities.

[Beavah]

Yah, Lisabob and Horizon, I hear yeh. In Lisabob's case, the most dedicated and gung-ho scouts are doin' it, taking up the time of the no-shows. Thing is, as described, First Class Emphasis means the troop should provide the opportunity to all first year boys. Assumin' that more than half of 'em are going to fade out so that the few gung ho kids get all the time they need doesn't seem like it's really the spirit of the thing. And Horizon admits to not doin' NSP.

 

So to my mind, that's two more examples of how it isn't really possible in da current program as written.

 

Second Campout, each of the new Scouts takes on one meal for the weekend

 

Horizon, what do you do so that every scout is ready and able to successfully plan and cook a meal on his own on his first attempt (and only da second campout to boot)? I've rarely seen even da best and brightest lads do this on their own right out of the gate like that.

 

Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth campout... First Class is demonstrated (by 4 different boys)

 

So on his third ever campout, a 10-11 year old is able to plan an entire weekend's food (with nutritional considerations), do the costing and the shopping and the safe storage and gear planning, and then be head chef for the whole thing in the field? On his own?

 

You must have a bunch of lads from da local culinary school.

 

Are yeh sure your TG/PLs and adults aren't still Demonstrating and Guiding?

 

I've always liked Kudu's thought test for First Class, eh? Would yeh trust the lads to plan and execute food (or whatever) on a patrol trip with no adults or senior scouts at all? That's what da signoff is supposed to mean, eh? Something the Boy Scout is able to do. For himself. On his own. I just don't see most boys gettin' there on their first try.

 

Shortridge's point is a good one, though. If a unit is associated with a pack that has a really strong webelos program, that gives yeh a lot of time to build boys' basic understanding and skill. That can really work for a troop. Thing is, FCFY wasn't designed to assume that sort of prior experience, especially since city and suburban troops tend to draw from multiple packs.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

So it would still take 8 trips for every member to do the First Class requirement, but the Second Class requirement could be done in a single weekend, a single meal even, rather than the 2-4 I said before.

 

Yah, da test could. Though I reckon it is fudging a bit not having to plan or cook for anyone else. And it would be an awfully big surprise if every boy moved along at da same pace.

 

That's a later step of advancement though, eh?

 

When did the lads learn? When did they get taught and see a demo? When did they each get stuck and get guided? When did they practice & play? When did they try and fail?

 

Da test of demonstratin' the requirement doesn't take much time (though it's almost too much to do in a year). It's the bigger, more important piece of advancement that takes da real effort, eh?

 

Step One: A Boy Scout Learns.

 

Would we expect a non-swimmer to pass da swim test his very first time? Of course not. Learning to swim takes work.

 

Why would we then assume that a young lad who has never planned or cooked before would meet that requirement his first time? Learning to cook takes work, too.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Lisabob]

As I said, I'm not a huge fan of the FYFC concept. But this argument " Thing is, as described, First Class Emphasis means the troop should provide the opportunity to all first year boys. " doesn't work either.

 

A troop can only provide the opportunity. If boys don't show up, then you work with the ones who are there. What I describe is the reality for a lot of troops. Boys join scouts with varying levels of commitment. For some, it is practically the only extracurricular activity they are involved in (especially at the younger end of the spectrum, which is what we're talking about here). For others, it is one of many activities. And of course there's parental commitment too. I wouldn't care to count all the hours I've spent driving my kid around and sitting at scout events, waiting for him. Not all parents can (or will) commit that time and so their kids are less involved per force.

 

That being the reality, it is not unreasonable to say that troops set up programs that allow the boys who show up to work on the requirements. If every kid showed up for every thing, we might have to rethink delivery. But that's never been reality and isn't likely going to be in the future, either.

 

Again though, I'm not overly fond of FCFY. I just think there are better arguments out there, if you don't like it.

 

[nolesrule]

" Though I reckon it is fudging a bit not having to plan or cook for anyone else."

 

Beavah, I hope the smiley meant you were joking, because that's not what I said.

 

As for learning, there's plenty of nutritious, well-balanced meals that are easy to learn. You gotta start somewhere. I wouldn't expect foie gras, caviar platter, vichyssoise, cooked-to-order filet mignon, baked potato, Caesar salad with cherries jubilee for dessert as a planned meal for a First Class patrol cook requirement... though I wouldn't say "no" if offered assuming it was in the budget.

[shortridge]

"I've always liked Kudu's thought test for First Class, eh? Would yeh trust the lads to plan and execute food (or whatever) on a patrol trip with no adults or senior scouts at all? That's what da signoff is supposed to mean, eh? Something the Boy Scout is able to do. For himself. On his own. I just don't see most boys gettin' there on their first try."

 

What about a capstone patrol trek built into the requirements? Or even as a local troop tradition - once you earn First Class, you're allowed to lead your patrol on an independent adventure? That could set up a great incentive.

[Horizon]

Beavah:

 

Good point. Here is my level of trust in their ability. As Scoutmaster, I eat with the Patrols (they actually fight over who gets to invite me).

 

That said, while one plans the menu, the Patrol DOES still have input. I have heard Patrol Leaders say (learned from Cooking MB), "Dude, we have to have more than just meat and bread or I can't sign off on the menu." My favorite emergency was the realization that a new Scout was a vegetarian and the Patrol Grubmaster had not purchased any veggie based protein. A quick stop at the store before the campout was required.

 

Baden Powell had 11 year olds running messages on the battlefield. I will say again, they are more capable than we give them credit for.

 

 

[73Trillium]

FCFY really has a look and feel of a run-on Cub-Webelo program. Unless the boy is uniquely motivated to do it himself there looks to be pretty heavy lifting required by Scouters and parents.

 

Sorry but I hear the chop-chop-chop of parent helicopters in such a philosophy.

 

[boomerscout]

as part of our new scout welcome packet, we ask the parents to please teach their son how to cook a hotdog, scramble an egg, open a can and heat it (or anything similar). This helps prevent the frightened look in cooking that first outdoor meal.