When do you tell a Scout no on advancement???

[Lisabob]

To my mind, this would be cause for removing the boy from any leadership position and suspending him from the troop, possibly permanently. He vandalized a fellow scout's personal property. It matters not that he didn't actually cause any real damage (only because the police caught him first!).

 

If that boy were in my son's troop, I think this would be the point where the other boys would ask - is the troop going to continue to back that boy, or is the troop going to back the rest of the boys? If the troop is going to back that boy, then the troop should be prepared to lose their other boys.

 

Time to decide where the troop stands.

 

 

[Mike F]

I'm with Lisabob - an intentional attack on a brother scout's property is grounds for suspension or dismissal. Based on your post the end of October, this young man wants out and he's going to keep acting out in worse ways until someone grants him his wish.

 

It doesn't happen often, but I have encountered scouts who we couldn't turn around. After working with them for a period of time, I have volunteered to talk to the parents to encourage them to let the scout leave. Usually they are gone for good and we hope they enjoyed and benefitted from the time they had in scouting. On one occasion, the young man took a year off, cooled off, came back on his own accord. We now call him Eagle Scout.

[Crossramwedge]

This just happened yesterday. The older boy's in the troop would prefer him to be gone. I think I am going to go to the SM and suggest that the older boy's meet and figure out what type of punishment should be meted out. The ASPL will be asked to refrain from this decision. I think that the punushment given to him will probably finish his chances to get "Eagle". This young man really does not care if he gets kicked out. In fact that(in my opinion)is what he wants. His Dad is the one who wants him to earn his Eagle. The kid does not really give a hoot.

[BrentAllen]

CRW,

While I believe in letting the PLC handle minor discipline issues, cases of severe misbehavior that merit possible removal from the Troop should be handled by the SM and the Troop Committee. If this Scout gets upset about being kicked out, you don't want him retalliating against the boys. Leave this one to the adults.

[Lisabob]

I agree with Brent. This is an adult matter. Don't put it off on the boys.

[Mike F]

Agree 100% with others - this is no longer a problem for the youth to decide.

Beyond shadow of doubt, the boy wants out. Since his words and actions within the troop haven't accomplished his goal, he has gone into attack mode on personal property and the police are involved. If this was some other bone-headed thing that kids sometimes do which gets out of control and gets them into trouble, we'd be talking about how to convince this scout he is expected to live up to our values (Oath & Law) at all times. That's not what happened.

 

Boy wants out, but adult (dad) is pushing for him to stay. Troop adult leadership needs to work this with adult dad.

 

There needs to be a meeting of adult leadership immediately.

I think this would be grounds for total removal of membership.

If you don't want to do that, recommend minimum of 6-month suspension with provision that he will only be allowed back after that time if he clearly expresses a strong personal desire to be back in the program and troop. Make it clear to dad that HIS desires don't count - SON has to want to be there, or no deal.

 

The fact that any punishment phase might eliminate this scout's opportunity to make Eagle is irrelevant. This boy has made his desires very clear and has made his own choices. Scouting is not all about making Eagle, otherwise we would have failed with the 96% of scouts who do not earn the right to call themselves Eagle Scout. This boy presumably enjoyed and benefitted from the program for a few years, but had other interests and wanted to move on. He probably could have done so with some fond memories and a future pang of regret at not staying the course, but his parents engaged with unhealthy expectations and demands. Now it has turned into a power struggle between father and son which will leave bitter memories forever. This is a classic tragedy. It's time to end it so this boy can move on.

 

Your troop needs to understand this is not an issue between the boy and the rest of the troop. This is an issue between the boy and his father. You guys need to get out of the middle of it. The boy is the member in the troop, not dad. If the boy clearly wants out, then adios and sincere best wishes - we'll save a seat at the campfire for you if you want to come back. Sorry dad - he's a big boy and has made his decision - you guys need to work this out yourselves.

 

[Crossramwedge]

Point taken, the Adults will handle it.

 

You know that there are those who would say that this should be a private matter between the parents and the kids involved and that the Scouts have no right to interfere in a private matter. Some would argue that since the episode did not happen during a Scout event then the Scouts do not have a right to punish the offending kid. I know I will probably hear that argument from the Dad.

 

The other young man involved is a nice kid. A Eagle scout who has stuck around and stayed with the program. Never have had any serious problems with him. It seems that the offending party has some sort of vendetta against the Eagle scout.

[Lisabob]

Tell that dad to take a look at the expectations regarding the scout oath and law. Boys are supposed to live by these guidelines in their daily lives, and not just for the hour a week that they are at a scout function. His argument is bogus.

 

Tell the dad that the troop has to stand up for the other boys it serves. Who would want to be in a troop where known vandals who target their fellow troop members, are put on equal footing with kids who strive to be good scouts (by which I mean, young men of character)? And by the way, what would the other parents say about such an arrangement? I know if it were my son's troop in question, I'd be doubting the judgment of the SM and CC, and wondering if I wanted to keep my son in such a troop.

 

Invoke the power of the CO. Since you are the COR, make sure you provide a brief head's up to the Institutional Head of your CO in case the matter makes its way to him or her through other channels. As you know, the CO has full say over who is, and is not, in their troop. Let this dad know that the CO does not believe that their troop is the appropriate place for his son at this point in time.

 

Don't give in to this dad. Scouting is about more than just his son's Eagle which, in any case, it seems this boy is unlikely to earn at this point in time, considering his recent behavior. And if his dad is the advancement chair, well then start looking for a new adv. chair too. And get your new adv chair off to a solid start by ensuring he/she goes to training, understands the BOR process, and pays attention to how scouts "earn" merit badges. From what you've written, the chief quality of this particular dad as adv. chair has been that he's a warm body. You can do better.

 

 

 

 

[Crossramwedge]

Lisa,

 

The Advance Chair is the father of the ASPL whose car was vandalized and not the father of the trouble maker. He just took on the responsibility and was not in charge of advancement until recently. Our Former Advance Chair had to re-locate in a different state 1400 miles away or lose his job.

[Lisabob]

Oh, whoops, I had the wrong dad there.

[John-in-KC]

Two items:

 

- SM conference with ASPL on the meaning of BRAVE ... he needs to know it's important to come forward over things like having his car vandalized.

 

- Otherwise, it's time to remit any monies on deposit for this youth, notify the Council the Chartered Partner will no longer accept the youth member under their charter, and then ... send a letter to the parents of the former member ... bar him from your property.

 

There is something way out of whack if a kid does not understand vandalism is not even acceptable conduct in polite society, let alone Scouting.

[Mike F]

Crossramwedge,

 

Lisabob and John-in-KC nailed it. I had missed point you are the COR. You and the organization you represent have not just the authority, but the responsibility, to approve/disapprove (including revoke) membership in the troop you sponsor as you believe is necessary. This decision is ideally reached jointly with SM and CC, but you have the authority to act unilaterally because your organization owns the troop. You are acting responsibly when you make a decision to revoke membership for just cause.

 

The only appeal process beyond you (COR) is via the Institution Head (IH) or top boss of your Charter Org. There is no appeal to Council or National. If a CO no longer wants a member to be part of the troop they sponsor, it's a done deal.

 

Just document the rationale for the record. Here's something to get you started:

"Over the last x months, Billy Jones has been counseled several times concerning his negative attitude and misbehavior. This information was shared with his father, Mr. William Jones, at the same time. Within the last 2 months, Billy has been explicit with adult and youth leadership within the troop that he did not want to continue in scouting. On Saturday, December 12, 2009, Billy was apprehended by city police in the process of vandalizing a vehicle owned by another senior scout in the troop. Due to Billys clearly expressed desire to no longer continue in scouting and his recent attack on the property of one of our members, we are hereby terminating all rights of membership in Troop 123 sponsored by ___.

 

Good luck, friend. This is tough. Think of it as conducting surgery to cut out a cancer before it spreads and kills the body.