When do you tell a Scout no on advancement???

[ghermanno]

Bryan,

 

Not to rehash previous postings but the scout can NOT start a Merit Badge any time he wants to. The Scout MUST have the SM's approval and signature BEFORE he starts a Merit Badge (on the Blue Card) and the SM's reccomended MBC. (reference MBC training or ACP&P)

 

As this is a "boy run" organization, the SPL should have an input. The BOR is NOT a retest, but can question a POR if there is a mistake. A BOR is a review, not just a rubber stamp.

 

YiS,

 

Rick

[Mike F]

Bryan,

 

I agree totally on immediate sit-down with SM and CC to explain expectations to meet the Scout Spirit requirement.

Its another good idea to bring in the problem scouts immediate supervisor(s) in the chain of command. If he is a member of patrol, then his PL should be consulted. If he holds (or has held) another staff position, then SPL/ASPL should be consulted concerning his attitude and performance. SPL, of course, is always top dog in these discussions. Just be sure to include lower-level leaders, if appropriate.

I tell parents the same thing thanks for the information, I look forward to hearing from Billy.

 

Im going to disagree about some of the other points though.

 

One of the purposes of the BOR is to determine if the requirements have been properly completed. If the BOR determines a requirement was not completed properly, they most certainly can and should give the scout instructions on what must be done or redone before coming back again. Then the BOR needs to talk to SM to let him know about a weakness in his advancement program. This is an important part of the checks and balances in the program.

 

ghermanno is right: SM is the gatekeeper for the MB thats why they put that signature block on the Blue Card.

 

Heres an example of this discretion in action. I just advised a 12-yr old scout, who wanted to start Personal Management MB, to start with something else. Right now, the boy gets an allowance for spending money and parents give him money to pay directly for everything from daily school lunch, to clothes, to Christmas shopping. He doesnt get paid for chores, have any other income or fiscal responsibility. In my opinion, hes not ready to benefit from this merit badge. I told him that, reviewed his list of MBs, and recommended another one. Scout seemed happy. Then I had a quick chat with his dad to let him know son would benefit much more from this MB in a year or two when son had more responsibility for handling his own money, so he had a better understanding of the concepts involved. When dad heard a few of the detailed requirements, he agreed.

I understand there's a gray area here. If scout (or dad) had pushed back for some reason, I would have listened and maybe changed my mind. But I know my scouts pretty well and use that to help guide them toward success.

[BryanSpellman]

Rick and Mike.

 

I agree on most parts but maybe it is just terminology. The "gatekeeper" example you gave is falls more under just the SM duties to me, work with Scouts and advise and guide. Unfortunately when you say "Gatekeeper" there are those that will say (and I know some) No Scout can take a merit badge till 1st Class or you can't take that till your are 15 no matter who you are. That is not the purpose of what the SM does. So yes he needs SM approval to start a MB but the SM should guide the Scout to the right MB not restrict/ban him for doing any one.

 

The BOR is not a rubber stamp but a review. Once you pull out the rope and ask him to tie a square knot you are going down the wrong path. Review but not Retest. While some may not see the difference, it is there and it is important to know that difference. It is the difference between a good program that allows the scout to grow and an extension of School where the Scout sees Adult Leadership as another just another Teacher and Scouting as a Pass/Fail Class. And yes I agree it is part of the checks and balances system when used correctly.

 

In the end it is about the Scouts. The more rules and regs we put infront of them the more we will lose. I certainly do not believe in rubber stamping anything (ask my Scouts) but I do believe there are enough barriers in a young man's life let's not make Scouting one of them.

 

YIS

Bryan

[shortridge]

Crossramwedge wrote: "Anyway we have just determined that his POR is not valid. He was using being a Asst. Patrol leader as his POR. (The Patrol leader gets to pick his Asst. Patrol leader) This position is not a POR to be counted for Life or Star for that matter."

 

So who signed off on that requirement in his handbook?

[Mike F]

Bryan,

 

I think were agreeing on a lot.

 

I am the MB Gatekeeper, but I try to be a thinking, benevolent gatekeeper.

 

For BOR, totally agree they cannot retest. But they should ask detailed questions which reveal insights into how things were accomplished. Tell us about the menu you planned for your First Class patrol cooking requirement. How did you work out the shopping list? Did you have enough to eat? Etc.

 

I will admit during SM Conf I will sometimes bust their chops a little maybe toss them a rope or ask a first aid question. Not as a criterion for passing, but just to keep them on their toes. Dont start yelling the emphasis is more on them. Well spend a lot more time talking about the last time they were offered drugs than we will on recalling first aid knowledge.

 

[Crossramwedge]

I have not looked at his book to see who signed off on that requirement. We as leadership goofed up there. He got the rank and it cannot be rescinded. Have talked to the District Eagle Advancement Director and he said that because we goofed up he would allow this young man to make up the POR for Star and he would count it. He still would need a POR for Life.

 

We have a young patrol and the ASM suggested that he take on being the Troop Guide for that Patrol. The SPL said no way. So that leaves Troop Historian, Librarian, Instructor or Buglar. JASM is out of the question.

[Lisabob]

If you put him in any of those positions you mention, and given his background as described here, I would recommend that you have a written understanding of what the position entails, and what the consequences of not actually doing it might be. A lot of times, the positions you listed are "pass through" positions where nothing much is expected or accomplished. They don't have to be that way though, if everybody involved has clear ideas of what needs to be done.

 

In my son's troop I really dislike seeing kids who get to Life and Eagle on the basis of having been troop librarian and historian a couple of times - and nothing more strenuous - because they are weak positions in his troop. But that's weakness in the troop's program, as much as it is the fault of those kids.

[Mike F]

Crossramwedge - I'm glad you got District involved. Good plan to have scout make up the POR he missed for Star. This isn't punishment - it's giving him the opportunity to grow through the experience.

 

But be careful here.

Adults don't put him in any POR.

He's either elected to be PL/SPL, or he's selected by SPL for a staff job, or he's assigned a leadership project at the discretion of his SM (and there's no requirement for SM to use this method - I don't).

This scout has not been elected. If SPL doesn't want him on his leadership team until he's had an attitude adjustment, this scout can cool his heels for a while. That's part of the growth experience, too.

 

It may do him a world of good. I've personally worked with a scout with an attitude who hung around on the edges, refusing to support the troop program, and waiting for someone to hand him a POR patch for over 2 years. This POR was the only thing standing between him and Eagle. He refused to run for PL. No SPL would touch him. Finally, at 17, he turned around, started participating in meetings and going on campouts. At 17 yrs 3 months, he was elected as PL -- his first job with significant responsibility. The young man was amazing and had a blast. At 17 yrs 9 months, he asked for permission to run for PL again, even though he would be "aging out" before the term was up. His patrol re-elected him in a landslide. His parents were mad at me for two straight years for "standing in his way," then completely flabbergasted at the change when he woke up and came to life. The program works, but sometimes you have to have thick skin. Being nice wouldnt be doing the scout any long-term favors.

 

Lisabob's idea to use written expectations is golden. Send me a PM if you'd like to see the ones we use.

 

And there's no requirement for a troop to use all possible PORs. We don't have troop Librarian, Historian or Bugler positions.

 

[Crossramwedge]

I agree with you Lisa that he not be handed a pass through position. The SM, SPL, CC and Advancement person are going to get together and come up with a plan to see if we can get this situation handled. The current SPL really does not want him on his team. It may come down to haveing to wait until we have elections for the next SPL and then work this young man in to a position that the New SPL would be comfortable with haveing him in. I hope things work out and the Scout in question straightens up. As I said before if he will get his act together we will do our best to see that he EARNS his "Eagle". If he does not, then we are no longer going to waste time that could be better used on the boys that truly love scouting. Its up to him.

[Crossramwedge]

Well, the Asst. SPL was recently told by this young man that he has no use for scouting and wants nothing to do with scouts in any way shape or form. He has been told that he needs 2 positions of responsibilty and has not approached the SM or SPL as to how that would be accomplished.

 

We had our fall camporee this past weekend and he was there from 5 PM to 9 PM Friday night . Had to go home to get a good nights sleep for a sporting event he was involved in Sat. Said he needed as good nights sleep. He showed back up at 6 AM sunday morning and ate breakfast, helped tear down but then went home.

[PeteM]

>>>PeteM wrote: "The rank of Eagle is not only the written requirements, but ones of character as well."

 

shortridge wrote: I must have missed this element of the advancement method. What is your source?

[OldGrayOwl]

Pete,

you almost hit the nail on the head, except the Scout Oath goes:

 

On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

 

Let's strive to be a bit more accurate in our quotes, OK?

 

The Scout doesn't only promise to do his best, he just does it (I WILL). He also helps other people at all times.

 

I can see where you were going, and it is true. What some people have said are the "unwritten requirements", really ARE written. They are contained in the Oath, Law, Slogan, Outdoor Code, etc. If the Scout has met the other written requirements, but fails to keep the Law and Oath, that is reason to keep him from advancing.

 

Check out this link:

http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoathlaw.asp

 

OGO

edited to add link.(This message has been edited by oldgrayowl)

[shortridge]

PeteM,

 

Woah, buddy! I'm not sure what I said to get such a reaction. Chill out a bit, please.

 

The way I read your initial statement was that Eagle Scouts have to demonstrate some sort of character qualities or traits above and beyond everyone else, which is clearly not true.

 

From your reply, I understand that you're just referring to the Scout Oath and Law, which *every* Scout of any rank should be following. That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[John-in-KC]

" ... but fails to keep the Law and Oath, that is reason to keep him from advancing."

 

Actually, requirement 2 for Star and Life is:

 

Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

... and for Eagle it is:

Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crossramwedge]

Well here is another issue. The young man in question was caught by the police "tagging' a car. He drove over to another H.S. in town and proceeded to "tag" (vandalize) the ASPL's vehicle. He was caught by the police. No real harm was done to the car. The ASPL was so embarassed by this he did not inform his parents. His Dad is the Advance man for our troop. This is getting out of hand.