When do you tell a Scout no on advancement???

[Crossramwedge]

Thank you for your advice. I am in the unusual position of being both CC and COR. I never would want to abuse my positions. I am very involved with the Troop. Attend all the meetings and go on several camp outs. I have seen first hand this kid in action. He will not help on camping trips, he wonders off by himself and usely finds a way to get his Dad to take him home early. As I said we have spoken to him and his Dad about this behavior on several occasions, Thank you for your advice. I think the young man will have a rude awakening at his next BOR. He is only 15 and has time to straighten up.

[John-in-KC]

CRW,

 

Given what you just said, I think it's time to call a non-advancement BOR. I'd talk with your IH, but it may be time to send a clear message that his participation in your Troop is a question mark ... from the Troops' perspective.

 

Keep us informed, please

[Lisabob]

I swear, we have that kid in my son's troop too. He bugs the stuffing out of practically everybody. I really wish the SM and CC would hold the line because he has ruined scouting for other kids, with his behavior. So I'm glad you're willing to stand up for what's right.

 

As a committee member and BOR participant, my only suggestion is, don't wait for his next BOR. Encourage the SM to hold a SMC with him sooner than that.

 

About certain parents paying kids big money for badges and ranks: Is it Jeff Foxworthy who says "you can't fix stupid?"

 

 

 

[Crossramwedge]

To update. Young man was given a SM conference. He was told in no certian terms that he was no longer going to slide from one rank to the next. A lot of badges where earned before this SM took charge. Anybody can go through the mechanical aspects of what it takes to be a scout. This is what he was told:

 

(1)Not to late to shape up and "try" to earn Eagle

(2)Or he could waste the next 18 months by continueing on with the same attitude he has now, age out and not earn Eagle

(3)Or he needs to evaluate wether scouting is his thing and if not, move on.

 

The ball is in his court. If he wishes to truly shape up then we will help him, if not we are not going to "kick" him out, but neither are we going to waste any more time on him so to speak.

[fgoodwin]

I've never understood the concept of "Eagle material", or the idea that SMs have to somehow "uphold the standards" of the Eagle rank.

 

By definition, a boy is "Eagle material" if he satisfies the requirements for the Eagle rank. And SMs "uphold the standards" by running the program as BSA has written it -- no more and no less.

 

I understand there can sometimes be personal issues with a boy, but where is it written that such a boy may not be awarded the Eagle rank if he otherwise meets the requirements?

[PeteM]

Well, to put it REAL bluntly, since an Eagle Scout is "supposed" to be the cream of the crop, the best of the best, the 2 - 3 % of all Scouts, would you want a scout to be awarded the rank of Eagle, while he was waiting for his EBOR, having just been arrested for date raping your daughter? I mean he completed everything else and rape is not part of the requirements and we don't want to add to them, either.

How about a person that finished everything but his SM conf. and his EBOR, being part of a drug ring?

Do you consider these scouts to be Eagle material?

[Mike F]

Pete,

No need to try and decide if he is in top 2-3%. And no need for subjective assessment about being "Eagle material." These generic questions can be met by setting and holding scouts to performance standards in their position of responsibility and assessing their scout spirit in terms of living up to the values we express in the Scout Oath and Law.

For your example, I would say, no.

We don't have to get all twisted up over this. The program gives us a legitimate way to handle it.

 

[PeteM]

I know it does and so do you, but there ARE people that believe that we should award the rank solely on the youth having completed the "written" requirements. They believe that anything outside of that is "adding to the requirements". The rank of Eagle is not only the written requirements, but ones of character as well.

[BrentAllen]

In a time long, long ago, I would like to think that Scouts had a lot of pride in their Troop, and they would recognize that their Eagles carried the Troop's reputation on their shoulders. They would make sure any Scout who earned Eagle was worthy of the recognition.

 

When I see Eagle Scouts committing murder, it makes we wonder - were they just really bad apples, or were they just passed thru an Eagle Mill program, checking off requirements. Were those boys ever "Eagle material?"

[Crossramwedge]

"The rank of Eagle is not only the written requirements, but ones of character as well."

 

Thats what I am talking about. Anyway we have just determined that his POR is not valid. He was using being a Asst. Patrol leader as his POR. (The Patrol leader gets to pick his Asst. Patrol leader) This position is not a POR to be counted for Life or Star for that matter. He still has time to straighten up, but I would be surprised if he did so. As I said the ball is in his court.

[John-in-KC]

CRW,

 

Thanks for the update. This is where a good Advancement Coordinator helps. by having a good idea of what the Scout is doing, and keeping it in one of the established databases (such as Troopmaster), a Scout sho is thinking he is ready to advance may just be... wait for it... THINKING HE is ready to advance.

 

The SM, among others, know otherwise.

[Mike F]

Crossramwedge,

Glad the advancement to Life question is clear-cut at this point, but this will rear its head in a new way very soon.

 

I recommend your leadership team get on the same page now, because there will be pressure to find the scout a POR to get credit for advancement.

 

My $0.02 for consideration:

 

1. There's no such thing as a scout "needing" a POR. The fact that a POR is standing between him and his next rank is irrelevant.

 

2. No scout is guaranteed a POR on demand he has to earn it and either be elected as SPL or PL, or be appointed to a POR by the SPL, or successfully complete a leadership project assigned by the SM. (I almost never use the SM project option there are plenty of PORs which need the scouts energy more and offer a better growth opportunity.)

 

3. The SPL should not be pressured to provide a POR for a scout if SPL has reason to believe he has not proven himself reliable and a good role model.

 

4. No POR is permanent or a guaranteed ticket to advancement credit in 4 or 6 months. If a leader is not meeting the pre-established requirements for fulfilling the job (like doing his job and setting the example by wearing his uniform properly), he can be removed from the position immediately.

 

Last comment about the Scout Spirit requirement: There may be a subjective nature to the successful completion of this one, but it is indeed a written requirement and is just as valid as the merit badge count, service hours, and POR. This is NOT a rubber-stamped requirement and can be a very valuable tool in helping shape a young man as he grows. I just had a SM Conf with scout (with dad observing) where I explained his recent melt-down in the Scout Spirit area prevented me from approving this requirement for his next rank until he could demonstrate he had changed his ways. His father knew full-well there was an attitude issue and thanked me for helping get through to his son.

 

As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[shortridge]

PeteM wrote: "The rank of Eagle is not only the written requirements, but ones of character as well."

 

I must have missed this element of the advancement method. What is your source?

[Buffalo Skipper]

Crossramwedge, As CC and COR, it is great to see you involved and caring about what the health of your unit and your individual scouts. Talking about this scout you said: He will not help on camping trips, he wonders off by himself and usely finds a way to get his Dad to take him home early. As I said we have spoken to him and his Dad about this behavior on several occasions

Seems that this statement, along with the $$$ payoffs, really suggests that this may be more of an issue about the dad enabling the behavior. My action, as SM would be to ask the dad not to attend a campout for a while, and to not have the son leave early. This is a disruption to the troop and activity if not done for legitimate reasons.

We have a scout who just transferred in from another troop. This scout and his parents had some problems in that troop (I spoke to their leaders about this). We wanted to avoid the same pitfalls as the other troop, we enlisted the parents as committee members rather than ASMs.  We also arranged that they not attend campouts for a while so we could evaluate Johnny-scouts skills and give him the opportunity to bond with his patrol. At our campout last weekend, he came up to the adults 3 times wet eyed and homesick. We were glad he came to us about this and we worked him through it. He had a great time, but as a Star Scout, I doubt he had ever done a weekend of camping without his parents. Fortunately he has excellent skills and is very motivated and polite. But removing his parents from our next few months of camping will have a big affect on his ability to grow and come into his own and contribute to his patrol and our troop.

This may be a way for you to be engaging with your scout rather than putting him on the defensive with a strong and negative scoutmaster conference.

[BryanSpellman]

Reading this post there is so much wrong with what I am hearing:

 

What is the SPL's opinion matter in this Scout's rank? Or the Troop Committee? This is a job for the Scoutmaster and Advancement Chair! The Board of Review is not a RETEST, if a requirement is signed off and he has had a Scoutmaster Conference then the Board of Review cannot ask him to tie a knot or build a fire! They can ask about skills used, Leadership done, life in Scouting but not determine that a requirement must be redone!

 

The Scoutmaster IS NOT the gatekeeper to Merit Badges! A Scout can start a Merit Badge at any time!

 

As for the Dad, next time he comes and requests something for his son, let him know that this is Boy Scouts, not Dad Scouts. If the Scout wants a SMC or BOR it is the Scout's responsibility NOT the parents. I've had many a mom or dad ask for a SMC for his/her son. I tell them thanks for the update, please have your son come and set one up with me.

 

Specifically for this Scout I would have recommended a sit down with the SM and CC (I had this with one of my Life Scouts recently) and explain what Scout Spirit is and what living by the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That Scout Spirit is not a check off requirement.

 

YIS

bryan