Advancement Campout with another Troop?

[us3packrats]

One of out Scouts recently went on a campout with another troop. He is friends with several of their boys. The campout was basically to work on rank advancements up to 1st Class.

 

Our Scout came back with a list of requirements he completed.

The Committee now has differing opinions. Some say fine, just go over them again with him and make sure he knows them, before signing off on them.

 

Some, including his father, say they were done and approved by another Scoutmaster and the Scout shouldn't be required to go over them again. (They weren't signed in his book, just on a piece of paper.)

 

Any opinions on how to handle this, and was it appropriate for him to camp with another Troop for his advancements? We had held a similar campout earlier in the month, but he was unable to attend it because of sports.

 

Thanks in advance for you input.

[Beavah]

Yah, it's your Scoutmaster who determines who is eligible to sign for requirements, eh?

 

I think it was kind of another troop to let your scout attend and to help him out, but just like BSA summer camp they should not have been signin' his book without the OK of the boy's SM. And it sounds like they didn't.

 

So I'd tell the boy's dad that since official, paid BSA camp staff aren't supposed to sign for those requirements, the same applies to another troop, and that's why they didn't sign his book. Great that he learned stuff, and that should help him next meetin' / campout when you test the lad.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

HUH???

 

I have never, in my 52 years on God's Good Earth, heard of an "Advancement Campout."

 

I have heard of camps where the PLC established emphases, such as land navigation, which supported T-2-1 advancement items. I have heard of PLs, knowing Billy needs his campout being the cook to meet 1C cookery requirement, set Billy as the cook for the camoout.

 

I'd let the PL or the Guide re-test.

 

To me, the other Troop smacks of "Eagle Mill." I would look into this lots closer before ever letting another Scout go (short of a camp with a friend).

[IM_Kathy]

we have had campouts geared toward different rank requirements - time where the older scouts will be teaching knots to the new scouts... the new scouts get the knot down and then come show off their work to an adult and get it signed off. We also have boys that know they are just missing X and that he can do that at the next campout and let's his PL and one of the adults that he'd like to complete requirement X during free time.

 

as to doing it with another troop... I'd simply say "that's great that you learned those skills, but for us to sign that off in the book you just have to demonstrate those skills" when he says "why I've already done them" you reply "great then it won't take much time, lets get started with x"

[eghiglie]

We never retest once the item has been signed in the book by folks in our Troop. Council has made this clear to all the troops in my area. When we get sheets like that we take it as they have been taught, then we test. That said we've some strange things signed off.

 

We have an advancement camp out once a year. They work for us. Its like a catch up before summer camp in the event boys missed a meeting or two (or five).

 

The boys that need T-2-1 stuff signed off are teamed up with an older boy. This is for first aid, knots and lashings, and gives the new scouts a real sense of accomplishment to get these items signed off. One rule we have is that the boy who teaches them cannot be the same boy who tests them. Most of these scouts still need to attend the Trailblazer program at camp, and we test on those items once camp is over. I'm amazed at how little they remember.

 

After 1st class only adults such as the SM or ASM can sign boys books.

 

Patrol Cook is a very serious job in our Troop. They are the Head Chef for a weekend and its important that everyone can eat the food cooked. We require a boy to have assisted in the kitchen at least twice before they can be patrol cook. We also require a senior scout to be an assistant cook. We encourage the parents to let them help with cooking chores at home for practice, lets face no one wants a 1 inch thick onion slice.

 

We've learned over the years that the boys who plan the kitchen well advance quicker. Not sure why but this is what we've seen. We've also seen the boys who do a poor job in the kitchen leave, thus why we added some extra training.

 

This extra emphasis helps them a lot.

 

We had one boy who aged out come for a visit and he was telling us that when he is dating a girl he cooks a very nice meal for her, this saves him a ton of money.

 

[ntrog8r]

I've never heard of an "Advancement Camp", camps where Scouts demonstrated / completed items for advancement - yes. I heard once, at a training long ago, that BP said, "Advancement should be like a tan, something earned effortlessly while out of doors." Now, I don't know if BP really said that or not, but it sure rings well with me...

 

As for signing the book, that's the SM's choice. If there is any question about the LEVEL OF SKILL learned by the Scout, have him demonstrate. If his dad wants to involved in advancement methods and procedures, recruit him to a spot where you can use his enthusiasm, AFTER completing requisite training. Funny how the loudest ones never go to the training... Personally I would not question the veracity of the activities being done, after all a Scout and a Scouter are attesting to it. I may question the LEVEL OF SKILL learned / retained by the Scout.

 

Regardless, I'd probably send a thank you off to the other SM for hosting my Scout and sending a note telling me what they worked on at the camp.

[FScouter]

I'd be wondering why a boy would rather camp with another troop.

[Twocubdad]

I agree with the majority that it's appropriate for the troop to test the Scout before signing his book.

 

Never had an Advancement Campout but occassionally we will have an advancement day, usually a Sunday afternoon during which several ASM are available for any Scouts who are ready to be tested on any requirements. Seems like there's never enough time on Tuesday nights or even many campouts.

[mmhardy]

Im going to be a contrarian on this one. Unless this troop is from another planet, if he passes the requirements and another qualified Scout or Scouter passes him then thats it, he is done.

 

I see real evidence of Keepers of the Flame syndrome. (Adding requirements, questioning if the boy really did the work even if signed off by Green Bar Bill, this Scout is not worthy, etc. ) Scouting is a youth program and that little crest above your left pocket indicates its a worldwide brotherhood. As soon as we are suspect of the worthiness of a brother troop the whole BSA movement is in trouble.

 

As for the term Advancement Camp. My reaction is duh. All Scout camping should be geared toward learning, testing and achieving Scoutcraft skills. Its obvious that this troop gets it and has put together elements of a T-2-1 program. Our troop also does this EVERY campout.

 

Ill bet my last dollar that this can be quickly sorted out with a 2min chat between the SMs.

 

[Knot Head]

FWIW our SM would probably re-test the scout in question but it would be his call. If the SM told the scout upfront that anything the other scout troop signed off on would count then thats his call to make. Not that we don't trust the other troop, but we don't award service hours unless approved in advance and I think this would be treated the same way. It would be the scout's job to get pre-approval from the SM if he wanted to get credit. With pre-approval given by the SM no problem.

 

We have a couple of campouts a year where the instructors and older scout volunteers teach the younger guys skills such as knots, lashing, totin' chit, finding directions day & night, orient a map, etc., etc. etc. There are ASM's that test after the scout feels he is ready. Some pass, some need a little extra work.

 

We have many youth who are competitive soccer, baseball, football players. They miss meetings during their sport season and these activity campouts are a way to catch back up on advancement while camping and having fun with their friends. Many of these guys come to our troop because we have the reputation (and mission I suppose) of working with families & boys that want to be in scouting but have other activities such as competitive sports they enjoy also whose schedules interfere with scouts. Some drop out to focus on sports, others stay with us. One of our 9th grade life scouts is captain of the middle school football team and also school president. He is not scared to wear his scout t-shirt to school and has recruited other kids to the troop. He misses meetings & campouts from August to early November but attends the other months. Hell probably be the next SPL during his off season. Without skills campouts to catch back up and leniency for missing meetings we might probably lose a guy like that which would be a shame.

 

Basically every campout we hold requires some skills work and we try to make time for testing, but these skills / advancement campouts are geared toward it where others may be geared more toward canoeing, backpacking etc. I don't see it as a bad thing to have campouts where learning skills & advancement skills are the primary objective and are taught and tested.

 

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EDIT: We have had scouts camp with another troop. Usually the troop that meets at the church across the street. One example we had three scouts who wanted to get the climbing merit badge. That troop has a guy who is an expert climber and takes that troop on an annual climbing campout where they earn the badge. Our guys went with them and earned the badge on that trip. We took one of their guys on a canoe trip who needed a float trip to finish the camping merit badge.

 

(This message has been edited by knot head)

[molscouter]

If your area works anything like ours, the answer is likely to be it depends. My son's Scoutmaster has been around for a long time and knows a lot of people. He has been exposed to Scouts from many troops in our area through Eagle Boards, OA, etc., and has formed opinions on the standards of those troops and how they do things. I am quite certain that if my son were to have gone camping with certain troops, the Scoutmaster would have said no problem and signed off almost immediatly. There are other troops that there is no way that this would have happened, there would very much be a show-me attitude.

[OldGreyEagle]

Why not have the scout in quesiton demonstrate a few of the skills he says he learned? Its not a once and done thing in scouts, just because I tied the bowline last month doesnt mean I will never have to tie it again, the scout needs to be in a program where knowing how to tie a bowline is important, the start a stove, to find his way in the dark. We can't just teach skills without a context in which to use those skills. DO the samething here.

 

What happened to trust but verify?

[Buffalo Skipper]

This sounds like a lot like the purpose of a "new scout program" offered at many summer camps. And like those programs, it is the troop's responsibility to see that the scout has mastered these skills to their satisfaction. Apparently the scout was tested, but by leaders not approved by your troop and ones who are ignorant of your troops' standards and expectations.

 

I think that many troops may have similar outings, we sometimes do, but they are more inocently veiled with other themes, such as "cooking," "orienteering," or "pioneering." On the other hand, We try to make our first campout after the Webelos crossover focused on some "bssic" skills: fire building, ax and knife safety, patrol ogranization, and we often have several competitive games included. We just don't call it an "advancement campout" but the focus is on delivering some basic advancement related skills to better prepare our youngest scouts for future campouts. So far, this has worked well for us.

 

 

[Knot Head]

We do the same type of campout right after crossover Buffalo Skipper. That is one of the two we do each year. The other is usually in September. The crossover campout helps the new webelos into the troop, shows them how to use the gear, teaches basis skills, ax yard safety, fire safety, etc. It is a weekend long course kinda like the trailblazer T21 courses you see at summer camps. We try to maintain a high quality control level and testing which I'm not so sure summer camps do.

 

I also support having scouts repeat skills they learn. We always lash a flagpole and a gate. Not because we need them, but to practice lashings and also hold a flag ceremony. It's a troop culture thing. We value the flag ceremony and the skills we learn and try to practice these skills. Before we go on a hike we always verbally run thru the rules of a safe hike. If the guys cannot name all the points then each scout is given one rule to remember. When we take a break each scout says "his rule". By the end of the hike they've heard the rules said out loud a few times as a memory refresher. Same thing for safe swim & safey afloat. No caneo goes into the water until the scouts have said out loud the rules for a safe float. If you look for ways to review skills while you are having fun outdoors it's not that hard. I carry bag of small snickers bars in my backpack. Any scout that can secure a sprained ankle with a bandana or maybe splint a broken leg or tell me how to treat bee stings gets one. Any scout that can tie all 6 required knots in under 3 minutes gets a jolly rancher. Stuff like that. Tie all 6 knots blindfolded in under 2 minutes and I'll make you a turk's head to use as a slide.

[Eagle92]

If its T-2-1 Requirements, Why aren't the PLs, SPL, and other membeers of the PLC signing off on them?