How many Eagle MB should be done by parent?

[BrentAllen]

I don't know where Calico gets his info, but it is NOT from the BSA. This process is outlined in several places, and is very easy to follow. The SM IS the gatekeeper, and any SM who is not acting as the gatekeeper IS NOT doing his job.

 

SM HB pg. 127.

 

1. The Scout obtains from his SM a signed merit badge application AND THE NAME OF A QUALIFIED COUNSELOR for that merit badge.

 

Scouts may work on any merit badge at any time, ASSUMING THEY HAVE THE APPROVAL OF THEIR SCOUTMASTER.

 

 

One of the SM's jobs is counseling his Scouts on age-appropriate MBs. I would hope that when an 11 year old Scout wants to start work on Personal Management and Environmental Science, his SM would, as gatekeeper, convince him he needs to wait until he is older to do so. Yes, that is closing the gate to that experience, until the boy is older and more mature.

[SM196]

I am a little disappointed about the tone that this thread is taking. I would like to think that if we were all sitting around a campfire at a camporee that we would be able to express our opinions and respect what works for others. I wasn't looking to start a new movement or belittle what works for others. I just decided after 3 years of faithfully following this forum to becoming an active participant because I saw a lot of good information and common sense. I did take a lot of useful information and did further research and I found out our council dosen't offer MB training and I bought up at our committee meeting that I am going to send out parent talent forms that havn't been sent out for years to the parents and I am going to train our MB counselor's with the Power point presentation that was sent to me by Brent Allen. (thank you) I am going to bring up the training at Roundtable and see if any Troop is interested in joining us for the training or I may just pay it forward and send the presentation to them. And by the way I just had a 12 year old Scout come to me to do personal management and I explained to him how he needed to know how interest rates worked, have knowlege of the stock market, make a budget, etc. As he was giving me a deer in the headlights stare he said so can you sign my BC. I asked him if he was willing to do all that work when he never turned in the paperwork for the Metalworking MB he took with me 8 months ago or the 2 other partials he has to complete. I think I did the right thing in refusing to sign the BC, even though there is no age limit to begin doing MB's. I just hope that we all are kind and courteous in our responces.

Thank you

[CalicoPenn]

If you refused, as the SM, to sign the lads blue card, then you did the worng thing. You were just fine up until that point. The BSA policies are clear on this - a Scout may work on any merit badge at any time, and may work on any number of merit badges at any time. A Scoutmaster counsels, as you've done - but when a Scout still wants to move forward, the Scoutmaster should sign the application and provide the name (or names) of an MBC.

 

By refusing to sign, you have acted as a gatekeeper - an obstacle - and that is not the job of the Scoutmaster. And you have just decided your judgement takes precedent over the policies of the BSA which state that a Boy can take as many merit badges as HE decides he can handle. Since the advent of the "Troop Only" merit badge counselors, more and more Troops are developing their own training materials and policies on Merit Badges that conflict with National policies - and more and more Scoutmasters and Committees see themselves as some sort of keeper of the sacred.

 

A Scoutmaster gives a Scout the name of a Merit Badge Counselor because the Scoutmaster is the adult that should be interacting with the Scout on a regular basis and would naturally be the one to provide the Scout with the information. When providing the name, the Scoutmaster is ensuring the the MBC is a registered MBC, trusting that the person who provided him the list is giving him an accurate list. The hope is that the Scoutmaster will look over the list and provide a name to the Scout of a counselor that is close to the Scout's neighborhood - it isn't to pick a name from the list that every Scout in the unit WILL go to. National policy also makes clear that the Scout can use ANY registered Merit Badge Counselor that is listed for a badge. If the Scout knows that his neighbor is an MBC for a merit badge he's interested in, then he can use that counselor - he just needs to let his Scoutmaster know so the SM can check the name against his list. If a Scout decides, for any reason, that he doesn't want to use the MBC the Scoutmaster has "assigned" to him, does that mean he doesn't get to work on the badge because the Scoutmaster's assignment is sacrosanct? I surely hope not, for the Scout's sake. If you, as the SM insist that a Scout use an "assigned" counselor, then you have failed the Boy.

 

[John-in-KC]

SM196,

 

If we were at a campfire, we'd have the emotions in our voices, a comfy chair, a cup of coffee or cocoa, and the ability to look each other in the eye. We have to substitute the word onscreen for that. Cuts the available non-verbal cues to zero.

 

BTW, why is your District Advancement Chairman not doing MB Counselor Training? THAT'S A PURE PART OF HIS VOLUNTEER POSITION! I'd recommend your COR visit with the DE and District Chair and ask this tough question for you.

 

Calico: OK, Billy just had his leg set in a cast, having broken it at school. It's going to be on six months. Billy comes to you and asks to begin Hiking or Backpacking Merit Badges. Do you authorize him to begin? He's not physically qualified to begin. What about Mr and Mrs Jones, who've visited offline with you. Jack's grades have slipped. They're not pulling him out of the Troop, but they want him laser light focused on his studies. He comes to you asking to start Auto Mechanics (and no, that's not a course he's taking). You're going to say yes? We don't check our common sense at the picnic table on a weekend camp, nor do we check it at the door of the meeting hall.

 

The Scoutmaster is the gatekeeper. I'll grant that 90% of the time, the gate should be broadly open, but 10% of the time, it has to be something else.

[Beavah]

Yah, Calico, I appreciate how yeh consistently take da boys' side on these issues. It is true that sometimes, in some places, adults can put up too many obstacles. But to my mind, you're throwin' out da baby with da bathwater.

 

Adult Association is part of Scoutin'. I'd say more than part, even. More like "central." We put up obstacles to lads gettin' merit badges all the time, and rightly so. Camps typically put minimum ages on some badges like Shotgun or shootin' sports or BSA Lifeguard. That's partly because of da need to allocate limited resources, and partly out of the need to guarantee the scout a good experience, eh?

 

Same with units. Sendin' a lad off who is way too immature for a badge leads to a bad experience for other kids who want to work hard, and can really sour a Merit Badge Counselor. Losing a Merit Badge Counselor hurts da whole program. Sendin' a lad off to do a badge he's ill prepared for also does the kid no favors. In these days of spoon-fed schools, the shock of failure can be too much for some lads, and leave them lost and discouraged. For others it can be the right message, too. But yeh have to leave that judgment to the Scoutmaster who knows the boys the best.

 

And, too, we all recognize that many "Merit Badge Midway" and other such stuff isn't always in keeping with da BSA policy on merit badges, and good Scoutmasters sometimes have to say "no" to such opportunities if they want their boys to get the most out of their Scoutin' experience. Havin' mom or dad counsel a whole mess of the boy's required badges for Eagle also falls in this category. Yeh say "no", because that's what adults do when it's in the best interest of the boy and the program.

 

So the point is that da Scoutmaster, in takin' care of his scouts and giving 'em the best program possible does sometimes act as "gatekeeper" or "quality control officer" or whatever yeh want to call it. And he/she should. In fact, he or she must if we care about da kids.

 

Proper readin' of the BSA program materials allows for that.

 

Beavah

 

[SM196]

John-in-KC

As of right now our district has an opening for that position and I am not going to ask questions and be nudged into doing it. I'm just like most of us and wear too many hats at this time. I am going to bring it up at roundtable as a discussion and offer my help on the MB training but I don't need another patch for my arm.

[BrentAllen]

Yep, Scouts can work on any MB they want - with the approval of their SM. In case you missed it, I'll paste again, right out of the SM HB.

 

Scouts may work on any merit badge at any time, ASSUMING THEY HAVE THE APPROVAL OF THEIR SCOUTMASTER.

 

Please explain your understanding of the second half of that sentence.

 

 

[Horizon]

This is great - we can have a cage-match brawl of the "Thou Shalt Not Add to the Requirements" crew vs. the "Thou Shalt Not Deviate from the Advancement Guide #24601 (J Valjon, author) crew.

 

[starts looking for a recipe for popcorn in a Dutch Oven]

 

Here is the problem with being too much of a gatekeeper - the Scoutmasters who disagree with the ability under the official system for a Scout to earn Eagle by age 13. We have some of that cohort represented on this forum. A Scoutmaster COULD, by using his Gatekeeper role, prevent a Scout from following the official BSA program to earn Eagle in the minimum amount of time by simply refusing to sing a blue card until the Scout is "ready."

 

Now, I personally counsel Scouts to take certain merit badges before others. IMHO Personal Fitness is better after the onset of puberty, for example. However, if a Scout is determined to earn the badge, I will sign the card and recommend a Counselor who best fits that Scout's personality.

[ghermanno]

Horizon,

 

I see no problem with what you say you do. You, as SM, approved the Scout to take a MB and reccomended a Councillor. That is part of your job as SM. No arguement.

 

Not sure where the "add to requirements" comes in. No one is adding to the requirements. There appears to be a problem with the term "Gatekeeper". The SM is the Gatekeeper by haveing to approve the MB "BEFORE" Tommy Scout takes the MB. If the SM feels that ALL his boys should take ALL the MB's at one time with one councillor, that is the SM's choice. I personnaly would not agree but I do not control the SM's either.

 

I will say that MBC's "Should" be trained and MUST be approved by the Council/District PRIOR to working on MB's with the boys. Is this done everywhere like the manuals says it is? NO. But it is a nice goal to try to reach not a point to argue over because one group does and one group doesn't. I am the DAC for my District and still have SM's argue that their MBC's are trained and approved because they approved them. Ignorance can be cured by educating. Stupidity is not reversable. We can make a choice to learn and, as the Cubs say, "Do Our Best". We also are not being "Loyal" to the BSA movement if we are not following their rules as best we can.

 

If you indeed do what you stated in your post: "Now, I personally counsel Scouts to take certain merit badges before others. IMHO Personal Fitness is better after the onset of puberty, for example. However, if a Scout is determined to earn the badge, I will sign the card and recommend a Counselor who best fits that Scout's personality." then I commend you. You councilled the boy and made a determination as well as a reccomendation. Exactly as you should.

 

That's my $0.02

 

YiS,

 

Rick

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

Billy wants to work on the Hiking or Backpacking merit badges while wearing a cast - would I sign the blue card? Yes I would - both merit badges have requirements that can be done while Billy's leg is in a cast. There is no time limit to complete the merit badge, nor is there any pre-requisite that Billy be ready to hike the next day. Billy can do the non-physical related parts of the badge now and complete the hiking portion of the badge later. If Billy had a signed blue card for either of these merit badges then broke his leg, would you take the blue card away?

 

Jack's parents want him focused on his studies and Jack wants to start Auto Mechanics - would I give him a signed blue card? Again, yes I would. I'm not his parent, it's not my job to control what he does with his time. Mom and dad can monitor and control Jack's time. I'll give a heads-up to mom and dad that Jack has asked for and received a blue card for Auto Mechanics and leave it to them to handle from there. Same question as above, Jack has a couple of outstanding blue cards when mom and dad tell you they want their son to be laser focused on his studies - do you take the blue cards away?

 

Who decides if the boy starts 1 or 100 merit badges at a time? The boy - National is clear that a Scout may work on as many merit badges at one time as he would like. Is this ideal? No - and that's where counseling comes in - but if the lad is determined, there is nothing in any BSA literature that suggests that a Scoutmaster may reign in a lad on the number of merit badges he is working on. The Scoutmaster's approval? It's not a consent (as most people think of the word as), it's an acknowledgement that the Scout has met certain requirements - and there is only one requirement a Scout has to meet to gain the Scoutmaster's approval - be registered in the Boy Scouts of America (read the wording of the application where the Scoutmaster signs - what does the signature represent - hint, that the Scoutmaster is certifying that the Scout is registered and therefore eligible to work on the merit badge).

 

Merit badge midways and colleges? Saying no to these falls within BSA's stance on Merit Badges - this is not their preference - they discourage them (though they could be much more active in discouraging them - it's hard to hold that line when Councils themselves are holding these events) - but when you say no, you can point to the BSA's stance on them to back you up. Say no to a Scout who wants to work on Personal Management because he is too young and I defy you to find anything in the literature that states that Scoutmasters can determine age limits for merit badges - you'll find BSA policy statements that Scouts can work on any merit badge, at any time, but you won't find a single merit badge with an age prerequisite.

 

For those who have been here for some time, they'll know that, as Beavah has stated, I'm quite consistent on my defense of Scouts who have obstacles thrown in their way - and I readily acknowledge that I can be quite firm about this (no doubt because I am someone who did have Eagle awarded on appeal because of the ignorance of some volunteers). I'm not suggesting folks concerns aren't well-thought out (heck - I may even agree with some of them) - I am suggesting that they need to be tempered with what the BSA expects - and that the BSA's expectations are primary.

[John-in-KC]

CP,

 

I'll agree that the SM should generally sign blue cards more often than not, far, far more often than not.

 

I'll even admit that here, gatekeeper isn't the best word... "keeper of the flame", "quality assurance officer", or even Guardian is more like it.

 

I also teach this stuff monthly at RT and as needed at other forums (this fall I'm doing a UOS gig). There, working with new folks who don't understand the program yet, gatekeeper connects the concepts ... and that's my job, to get the concepts across to new MB Counselors (and Scoutmasters as I get the opportunity).

 

Of course, the best part of this is honing all our minds

 

[BrentAllen]

"The Scoutmaster's approval? It's not a consent (as most people think of the word as), it's an acknowledgement that the Scout has met certain requirements - and there is only one requirement a Scout has to meet to gain the Scoutmaster's approval - be registered in the Boy Scouts of America (read the wording of the application where the Scoutmaster signs - what does the signature represent - hint, that the Scoutmaster is certifying that the Scout is registered and therefore eligible to work on the merit badge)."

 

Pure nonsense. If that is all the SM approval means, then all the Scout needs to do is show his membership card to a counselor. There would be no need for SM approval.

 

The Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement for the Troop. To ensure a quality program, his approval is required to start a MB, and he assigns the counselors. If a SM is standing in the way of advancement for no good reason, the CC and COR need to address that problem. The BSA has provided these steps so the SM can be in charge of the advancement program, and make sure it is a quality program.

[George_Scouter]

In all my years of scouting I've never known of a youth attempting to earn a merit badge who wasn't in scouts. It also seems that the advancements person could easily determine that the young boy who turned in the unsigned blue card isn't registered in the troop, no need to have the SM pre-determine this. That said I've know numerous troops who thought a boy was registered only to find at council that somehow the application hadn't made it in yet.

 

Instead, I believe the signature is part of what forces the scout and SM to see and get to know each other. It gives them something to break the ice at the SM conference. "So you've been in the troop 5 years? Who are you again? Haven't I seen you recently with something blue in your hand?" I crack myself up.

 

If the rules were written like laws then all the wanna-be lawyers would be looking for loopholes that their son could use to punch his ticket. Instead the rules are written loosely so that they can sit around the campfire and debate them while the SM quietly works the program.

 

Boys are young and here to develop. Guide them on how many MBs to persue at a time and which ones would be good to do. If they get muddled and confused then use the power of the pen to help them define some boundaries and get back on their path, realizing that each scout walks a sllightly different path. The real problem is the usual one, adults arguing without resolution and causing the youth to believe this is the way to do things.

 

[bs1964]

No rule that I am aware of. In my troop I discourage this unless it's part of a MB class. The whoel adult association thing is more effective when the adults aren't your parents.

[Basementdweller]

Brent is correct the SM is the Gatekeeper. He evaluates whether the young man is ready or not. Personal finance, backpacking and physical fitness come to mind as merit badges not appropriate for an 11 year old to attempt. I would like to think the SM has the boys best interest in mind. I would also like to think the SM would assign a MBC other than a parent.

 

Calico I have to disagree with just blindly signing cards for boys who lack the ability/time/interest to complete the MB. It isn't a roadblock it is just the process, the boys need to learn process. I pose a question to you then. What would prevent a brand new scout from filling out all of the merit badge cards to complete his eagle and get them signed with in the first couple of weeks of his membership.

 

Remember it is less about the rank, more about the experience.

 

Just food for thought.