Swiming Req. not fair?

[Eagle92]

I have to disagree with lowering the bar, I think being able to pass a swim test: 75 yards strong forwards stroke, 25 yards backstroke, and floating for a minute are a vital scouting skill. IT DOES SAVE LIVES

 

I'll give you an example. I had a fear of water since I did drown when I was about 4 or 5. Mom gave me a choice: learn to swim and stay in scouting or get out of scouting. She knew abotu some of the aquatic stuff BS did,and knew i would not be able to be a part of it unless I could swim.

 

I was fortunate in that yes I was did go to a YMCA for 1 two week class. But that still did not prepare me fully for BSA as I had to take the instructional swim at summer camp. Glad I did learn to swim as I had numerous aquatic adventures and did become a lifeguard.

 

While there may be challenges in leanring to swim, trust me I'm in a small town with only 2 pools open years round: the college and the city pool. But you will have leaders and older youth who are qualified to work with the young men. I've gone to SM's home pools, family friend's pools, and yes the city pool to work with folks to meet the swimming requirements for the T-2-1 ranks. So options are there.

[NJCubScouter]

Abel, I think we all need to be sensitive to the needs of people who cannot afford different aspects of the Scouting program, and yet I do not think it's necessary to eliminate swimming as an absolute requirement for Second and First Class. (Nor do I think Swimming should be added back to the absolutely-required list for Eagle, as some suggested in the earlier part of this thread.) Maybe I'm being naive here, but I have to think that some opportunity, some grant, some donation, some program somewhere is available so that inner-city youths can get enough time in a pool to learn to swim. And it also occurs to me that swimming is not the only activity that is required for advancement that costs money. Camping requires money for equipment. First Aid requires some money for supplies. There are probably other and better examples.

 

Are you aware of Scouts who have actually been prevented from advancing because their families could not afford enough "swimming time" for them to learn to swim, and who could not get that through some other program? Doesn't Scouting itself put some money into inner-city Scouting through the Scoutreach program that could pay for things like this? Again, I'm making assumptions here and I don't really know. Maybe I'm just hoping. (But maybe I'm right.)

 

As for the earlier part of this thread in general (which I did not see when it was active over the summer), I can tell you that my son is similar to some of the boys described by others. He started Scouting as a non-swimmer and did not pass the swimmer's test until his third year at summer camp. I remember being concerned that he was never going to make First Class due to the swimming requirements, and that he was going to get frustrated and quit. But guess what, he persevered and made it through. I do not remember the exact sequence of his advancement, but I know he struggled through the Second Class swimming requirement before he could really swim, and about a year later struggled a little less through the more difficult First Class requirement (which probably held him up from making First Class for a few months), and after further practice and growth, finally earned Swimming MB at the age of 14 or 15. So for some boys it's not easy, but it can be done.

[dg98adams]

I am the ASM in our Troop that does the Aquatic skills to include Swimming/Lifesaving MB as well as swim instruction. I am a YMCA Lifeguard and have been an advanced swim instructor/competitive swimmer.

 

I don't think the Swim requirement for rank needs revised at all.

 

I offer access to the Y for Scouts to do the water skills without cost. Several Troops in the area will send 1-2 Scouts my way that either did not get swimming at camp, skipped camp, or joined in the winter.

 

Even with all this you cannot force a Scout to work on the Rank requirement... but you can help them work thru it with a little patience, that summer camp staff usually can't provide.

 

[dg98adams]

I am the ASM in our Troop that does the Aquatic skills to include Swimming/Lifesaving MB as well as swim instruction. I am a YMCA Lifeguard and have been an advanced swim instructor/competitive swimmer.

 

I don't think the Swim requirement for rank needs revised at all.

 

I offer access to the Y for Scouts to do the water skills without cost. Several Troops in the area will send 1-2 Scouts my way that either did not get swimming at camp, skipped camp, or joined in the winter.

 

Even with all this you cannot force a Scout to work on the Rank requirement... but you can help them work thru it with a little patience, that summer camp staff usually can't provide.

 

[Stosh]

Fishing

Motor-boating

Sailing

Canoeing

Water-skiing

Life Saving

Rowing

Swimming

 

And there is also no BWCA or Sea Base options, nor is there any swimming and canoe/kayak options for activities for the patrol. Philmont is "ify" because there's various bodies of water one has to deal with along the trek.

 

If one is to follow these principles, on may as well join something other than scouts if they don't want to learn how to swim.

 

And heaven forbid if one of their parents or siblings falls in the water and they can't swim to help them.

 

Sorry, basic swimming must stay in the requirements as would first aid. I don't care if my boys mess up their knots or can't lash two poles together. Swim/rescue and first aid aren't for them to use just for themselves, it's for other people, too.

 

I don't like to swim, but I've had all the lifeguard training and I know how. I'm happy sitting on the dock watching the boys have fun. About the only time I swim is to pass the annual BSA swim test for all members of the troop, including registered leaders. Camp staff won't let me play in my kayak or canoe unless I do!

 

Stosh

[Oak Tree]

"It's not fair that some kids have better access to swimming pools than others." That's certainly true. Most things in life aren't fair. It's not fair that some kids have way better Scoutmasters than others. For almost every requirement, some kids have it easier than others. And swimming is a pretty important skill, especially in Scouting.

 

I personally hate the floating requirement. When I was a kid, I couldn't float at all, no way. I'd sink straight to the bottom and sit there. I don't recall for sure, but I must have passed the test with some gentle sculling. Still, it doesn't really feel like floating if you're keeping yourself afloat with hand motion.

[Gunny2862]

Since Abel reopened the ball on this...

So because a Scout lives in an urban setting do we also lower the bar on identify ten types of wildlife? Ten native plants? It's not fair - I live in the City?

Say we can't meet the nights camping because we can't get out of the City? Of course not.

How about I can't go to County Government meetings for Citizenship requirements because I live so far out on the edge of the County.

What you are proposing is the same.

 

Now, just because the city pools are only open in the summer - well that means you either need to emphasize this skill during that period or to see if there is a semi-private organization (YMCA, Boys Club, Neighborhood Association, School Pool, College/University Pool) that will let you have some free time or run a fundraiser to rent some pool time.

And Summer Camp actually IS an excellent time to try to obtain this skill at least under the conditions I've seen.

 

These may be real questions but It feels like Trolling to me.

[diogenes]

While I can understand the concern over access and cost for swimming pools, it is no different than other aspects of the program.

 

I did not advance past Tenderfoot because I couldn't pass the swim test. Darn near drowned a couple of times trying. I just never got it. My parents could swim, so that wasn't the problem. They tried teaching me; it just never took. My brother eventually figured it out and was able to advance.

 

I didn't quit Scouting because of that; I was having too much fun doing the camping and other stuff.

 

The lack of swimming ability didn't stop me from saving a Cub who was going under at a den activity when I was Den Chief. I jumped in the pool, grabbed the Cub, and kicked off the bottom to get him out. Probably not the smartest thing to do, but I was the only one close enough to do anything fast enough.

 

I have managed to learn some basic swimming as an adult. I still can't pass the swim test (yet), but it doesn't stop me from being involved. I earned the Polar Bear swim patch at summer camp two years ago with my Scouts (it was warmer in the water than out). One of my Scouts was able to swim, but was afraid of jumping in over his head. I got in to prove to him it was ok, and that he could trust the lifeguard (I cleared it with the lifeguard ahead of time so he knew to look out, though everything went well and didn't require his intervention).

 

Rambling aside, I don't see a problem with the requirement. The medical exception is there for those who truly need it (it was offered to me but I turned it down; I didn't have a medical problem, I just couldn't get the hang of it).

[evmori]

Learning how to swim isn't only for the affluent! That's just a load of bull!

[Frank17]

Swimming is a life skill, like preparing your own food (cooking), walking (hiking), fixing injuries (first aid), not getting lost (orienteering), and staying physically fit (exercise). It may be hard for some boys (I too had problems as a youth), but just because it is hard does not mean it should be eliminated as a requirement.

[boomerscout]

not knowing how to swim increases your chances of a sudden funeral. When I lived in a small town none of the public schools had pools, which meant they didn't teach swimming in gym class. It was understood by most of the citizens there that if you get into water over your head, you drown.

 

Two years ago, two of these kids -- ages 12 & 14 -- went wading in a creek. They stepped into an unseen dropoff. The bodies were found three hours later.

By not knowing how to swim you are blocked from an awful lot of the outdoors. No-one with any sense should ever allow you to get into a canoe or a fishing boat. You miss out on Northern Tier or Seabase. Later on you miss co-ed pool parties

[darboy55]

Well, it took awhile and the last post almost has it right. What can I say, it is NOT FAIR. The council would like to see every new scout obtain 1st class with in a year or so... give or take a few months... Take a new scout 11 years old... not much opportunity to swim, not much opportunity to conquer the fears they may have of water or maybe some physical limitations. I was in Cub scouts for 7 years, a ASM for 3 years and a SM now for just a few months and also a Unit Commissioner for almost a year. Worked with multiple Troops and even a Venturing Team. Been to Cubby Camps with boys just going into the second grade to Boy Scouts who are seniors in high school. Lets face it we are not all alike. Some swim like fish, some run like the wind, some can put 60lbs on their back and take a 10 mile walk at 8k feet and then there are a few that can maintain speeds of excess of 25mph on bike. And then there are those few that can do it all. God blessed them with the physical and mental capacities to live out the dream.

So let's get to it.... what to do... well you couch, you mentor, you encourage. This is boy lead organization, we use the buddy system, we use boy mentors whatever it takes to help out those that need help and as long as the spirit is alive and the desire to accomplish We as leaders should be there and encourage and reward. So lets do that. In one Troop which I was an ASM we did just that. We had a young man that was just deathly afraid of water. We worked with him just as stated above..... we did not hold him back from rank advancements. We gave him credit for what he could do and gave him additional physical challenges. And during a summer camp when he was 15 or 16 years old he jump in the water off a dock and we taught him to swim. WOW what a day that was for him and all those that were involved with getting him there. He did not do a 100 yards with specific strokes that needed to be mastered. We taught him how to tread water, stay calm, keep his head above the water and use safety equipment needed when he was in the water. Today this boy now enjoys water sports like water skiing and wake boarding, or taking a dip with his buddies. Can he swim a 100 yards yet? Nope, he can't.... but he can swim and knows how to use the safety equipment needed around the water. Thanks good enough for me, other adult leaders in the Troop and should be for the Boy Scouts of America. Let's put some common sense and options into the book of requirements. Long post but one last story.... I am a good swimmer... almost was a victim of drowning back about 30 years ago. Five years ago I was 95 miles off the coast of Mexico with by brother fishing Yellow Tail in a 22 foot boat. The life jacket that I had on was a auto inflate which I wore all the time. My brother told me not to bother to wear it saying that if I fell in, especially at night, I would be dead by the time he found me. I still wore... knowing how and when to use safety equipment around the water. Knowing and understanding your limitations is much more important than proving you can swim a 100 yards.

 

[Scoutfish]

My .02 for what it's worth. I used to be on a FD with a water rescue sqaud. Part of the requirement was that you had to be able to swim. No brainer right? But we always had on life jackets and helmets which also had flotation. We weren't going to need to swim were we? We'd just float.

 

 

Except that one time an averahe ordinary everyday wave flipped our AVON ( semi ridgid inflatable hull boat) over in 8 foot of water and one of our crew members jacket was yanked off.

 

Still not sure why it happened. The wave wasn't specail or diferent than any other. But sometimes stuff just happens even when you are prepared.

 

Another requirement was to be a certified Emergency Medical Technition. Realistically, we just grabbed victims and ran back to shore, with little time or chance for medical attenton, but sometimes, your emergencies are not on a sinking boat or drowning person. Don't believe me, ask a lady who gave birth in the intracoastal waterway on a pontoon boat.

 

Now, I have lived near the coast all my life, I was taught to swim by my father by being pushed off a dock at the Coast Guard sta. Althoug I wouldn't recomend it, I will tell you I learned to swim in around 20 seconds or so. Been doing it ever since. I have jumoped off dock and boats to grab a small child that was just too close and without enough supervison by their parents. Knowing how to swim extended their life.

 

But swimming isn't just for pools and lakes. Where I live, I can cross up to 35 creeks in a single day that are at least 12 foot across and 8 feet or deeper. Never know when you might get run off the road into a creek.

 

Now, I don't personally switch from back stroke to breast stroke or doggie paddel while swimming, but I swim none the less.

 

And somehow, I cannot float on my back. My legs just sink down. Yeah, I'm a freak of sorts I suppose. LOL! But I can survival float and I can stay above water while conscious. I can tread water for quite a while too.

 

I can hike. I can hike in the summer, the winter, uphill down hill.

 

 

I can hike in the rain too.

 

 

But I can't hike underwater!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[evmori]

Knowing and understanding your limitations is much more important than proving you can swim a 100 yards.

 

Great statement! One problem. Most kids have no idea what their limitations are. They see their buddys in the deep end of the pool and want to join them! But they can't swim.

 

Sissing down the requirement will not help. It will only hurt.

[mds3d]

I really have just one question.

 

What do you do with a young boy who has a "severe irrational fear" of water that goes over his knees? Lets even say that he has a clinically diagnosed phobia and is working with a psychiatrist to overcome his fear.

 

I really want to know what you as a scouter would say to this boy.

 

BTW I really do know a boy like this. After 3 years of working with the doctor, they requested alternative requirements. He was told that he could not be accomadated "simply because he was a little scared." The boy would later age out of scouting a Tenderfoot scout with more than 60 merit badges.