Non-team player scout

[Buffalo Skipper]

As always, thank you all for your sound and wise counsel. A few things to add quickly. He was not a Cub Scout, and in fact joined the troop the day after his 11th birthday, which was 3 weeks after the other scouts crossed from the packs. His PL is quiet and reserved, but by far the most responsible and reliable scout in his patrol. So much of our troop is so young that this is probably best handled by adults (the scouts would rather just do it for him than fight the good fight), though in another year or so, I hope that our troop has matured enough to handle these situations on their own.

 

I agree that it is easy to be impatient or get angry with the scout, but that is not the way to reach him. I don't know what carrots we can offer him; I will look into this more.

 

And no, he is not the only one we have; but he is the most severe case, by far. Our other "problem" scouts fall under different catagories, but the advice given here will go far to assist with their growth as well.

 

[Eagle1982]

There was some really good advice in this thread.

 

Quick question, and Beaveh kind of touched on this when he mentioned not to get impatient.

 

When this boy made everyone late for breakfast, how did the other Scouts react to it? Did they pressure him at all? Did this Scout show any remorse for making everyone late?

 

Questions for everyone.

 

Do you generally let everyone be late for one Scout's inactivity? Do you fear a risk of the Scout getting a "Code Red" when you are not watching? How have boys self moderated this issue (so we can teach the SPL and PL next year)

[Buffalo Skipper]

Good question, 1982. Did he show remorse? No. Were the other scouts upset? Well kind of. I was not particularly concerned about an agressive retaliation, but I was hoping for a more effective, measured response from the other scouts, but as our troop is so young (and this behavior has never really happened like this), the scouts did not know how they were supposed to react.

 

You see, this was part of the problem we had at camp this year. We had several scouts who were discipline problems (I don't want to get sidetracked on those here), but it seemed as if any "punishment" which was dished out by the PLC was warmly embraced by the offending scouts. When the scouts missed breakfast, they simply dropped by the canteen to buy slurpees and ice cream, which they preferred to breakfast anyway. Another example was two scouts who skipped out on watier duty at lunch one day were given 2 days of waiter duty for the troop, which was great with them, as that meant they didn't have to stand out in the hot sun and they got to eat before everyone else. We had to share the campsite with 2 other troops, so we only had to clean the latrine twice. It was considered assigning the offending scouts to the latrine duty, but as it occurred on the morning we had already cleaned it, and it would not would not be our turn to clean it again for 2 days, it wasn't much of a consequence.

 

After a quick conference by SMs and Committee members, it was agreed that these disciplinary scouts would need to be accompanied by a parent on their next outing (a step I loath to take). Wouldn't you know it, one of these scouts started jumping up and down saying "You mean my dad can come along? Cool!" But maybe that tells us alot of what the problem is anyway.

[evmori]

You see, this was part of the problem we had at camp this year. We had several scouts who were discipline problems (I don't want to get sidetracked on those here), but it seemed as if any "punishment" which was dished out by the PLC was warmly embraced by the offending scouts. When the scouts missed breakfast, they simply dropped by the canteen to buy slurpees and ice cream, which they preferred to breakfast anyway. Another example was two scouts who skipped out on watier duty at lunch one day were given 2 days of waiter duty for the troop, which was great with them, as that meant they didn't have to stand out in the hot sun and they got to eat before everyone else.

 

I see what the problem is! These kids want to be punished so they can do something else! Smarter than you thought, eh! Well there is a cure for every ill! If they miss breakfast, ask the folks at the canteen to not sell anything to those Scouts. Or if you see them with this stuff, take it off them & toss it in the trash! And as for those who skipped out on waiter duty, how about a couple days of latrine duty! And to top it off, a call to mom & dad for all offenders! Ya gotta be creative~

[Lisabob]

Just because the KID thinks it is cool that his dad gets to come along, doesn't mean the DAD will think it is cool.

 

If that punishment were handed to my son, he might (or might not) be thrilled, at first. However, when he discovered that his parents were pretty disappointed that his behavior required us to babysit him on a future scout outing, he would likely be a lot less thrilled - we'd see that he got that message quite clearly. And if it were my husband accompanying him, it would be even less "thrilling" for him because my husband does not enjoy camping very much. In fact I think I'd make sure it was my husband who "got to" attend with him in such a situation.

 

Talk to the dad (or mom). (S)He'll probably be happy to help you drive home the message you intended to send this kid.

 

By the way I think it is really difficult for many boys to "punish" their patrol mates, particularly when everybody is young and close in age. They probably will need a lot of guidance and support from you to do this anything like effectively. This too will probably get better when you have a core group of older boys dealing with the new scouts' "little kid" behaviors.

 

[Twocubdad]

Over the years I've had quite a few Scouts come through who simply had a very wide lazy streak. Or as Ron White's grandpa said about him, "that boy's got a lot of quit in him." Your best defense is an air-tight duty roster and to make completion of the tasks the responsibility of the whole patrol. That's pretty easy with meals and other camp chores, but something like sweeping pavillion doesn't have built-in consequeces the way blowing off breakfast does. The heard will eventually take care of itself.

 

We used to have a similar problem with boys manipulating the system at summer camp. Typically we had guys who failed to complete chores or get into uniform for meals knowing the could get by with it because we would allow the whole troop to miss a meal waiting for them. The troop committee made the commitment to have four leaders in camp at all times (which given the size of our troop wasn't out of the question anyway.) With four leaders, the policy is anyone who isn't in uniform or who doesn't have their duty roster assignments squared away doesn't go to the dining hall until they have done so. One pair of leaders escorts the troop and the other pair says with the slackard. If necessary, the first pair of leaders relieves the second so they can go eat. We can play that game all night, if necessary. If the slackards are only a few minutes late and catch up with the troop, they still go to the end of the line at the dining hall.

 

That's more of an adult-driven solution, but summer camp doesn't lend itself as well to working the patrol system.

Once we let the Scouts know the new rules, the problems stopped immediately and completely. Go figure.

 

As to your initial problem Scout, BS,

[BrentAllen]

If you are dealing with the problem Scout in a patrol manner, start with a little fun trying to get them "on time." The boys in our Troop do this sometimes with "Birds in the Wilderness" while we are waiting. This is done when the Troop is forming up at our flag pole in the morning. Since we cooked in camp, we did our own flag service in camp. For us, a few verses of Birds in the Wilderness took care of slow-moving Scouts.

 

If the problem is more serious, first try and let the boys work it out. I would make the Patrol pay the price and be late or miss an event. The boys will apply more pressure, and more of the type pressure you want - peer - than you can as an adult. They have their own way of delivering messages and getting everyone to pull their load. I have never worried about a "Code Red" in our Troop.

 

If the PL just can't get things to work out, he will go to the SPL or mention things at the PLC (we had daily PLCs at summer camp, which gave me a chance to see how the leaders were doing and look for problems). Encourage the PLs to work things out, give him some suggestions - make sure the duty roster is clear and fair, praise the boys that do a good job, etc. Our PLs were complaining at the beginning of the week, but had things worked out by mid-week, on their own. Be sure to give them time to work it out on their own.

 

If that doesn't happen, give the PLs some cards to play. "The SM is not going to be happy about this" is a good one. The PL never explains what will happen if the SM isn't happy - he just has to let the Scout know the SM may have to deal with him, and the SM isn't going to be happy. The message to the boy is - you can deal with me, or deal with the SM. Most boys choose dealing with the PL.

 

An SPL Conference is another card. The PL asks the SPL to have a conference with the Scout. The SPL gives him a talk about teamwork, carrying your load, what would happen if everyone skipped out on their job. Sometimes a little conference away from all the members of the Patrol can open the boy up, and he might reveal some other issue causing the trouble.

 

If none of that works and the Scout is standing before the SM, some "busy time" projects might be in order. Cleaning the latrine, carrying trash, camp improvement projects - these usually get the boy much more interested in his patrol duties. If that still doesn't work, call the PL over in front of the boy and give him a few bucks and tell him he can take the members of his patrol who completed their duties on time down to the Trading Post for ice cream. The trouble Scout stays in camp to complete his busy time project.

 

This must be handled very delicately by the SM. He can't ever appear to be mad or upset with the Scout. He handles everything very matter-of-factly. Everything is presented as "this is the choice you made" and can be turned around in a heartbeat. No threats or anything, just let him see what camp is going to be like if he chooses not to carry his weight with the patrol. That is the message you are trying to send. Be a team player and everything works out for everyone.

 

We weren't able to do Thorns and Roses every night, but we made sure we did it on Tuesday night (usually the climax for home sick problems). The Patrol can hold their own Thorns and Roses session, if need be. I have seen some real problems with behavior solved by simply going around the campfire in T & R. This is one of my favorite parts of Scouting.

 

Usually the last thing I want is a trouble Scout's parent(s) on the scene. You may find they condone the behavior and then you have bigger problems on your hands. I think we can work things out much better on our own. I also don't believe in sending Scouts home, unless it is a serious health and safety issue. Going home would be easier than staying in camp and living with the consequences.

[diogenes]

Sounds like some of the boys are embracing their consequences as a means of defiance, trying to get a rise out of the adults. They don't want to admit that having Dad along to babysit him will be embarassing, so they use their bravado.

 

It's like the delinquents in my security unit who claim that OC Spray "aint't nothing" to them... until they get sprayed and have to get decontaminated. I'm not saying we should OC the scouts, but just be aware that the consequences may be just fine, it's just the boy trying to look "tuff". Of course, if they have found a way to manipulate the system as others have mentioned, make sure you find what is important to them and attach the consequence to that.

 

It wouldn't hurt to give camp expectations before leaving, and making sure the parents understand them as well. That way you're less likely to get a surprise if you end up having to call a parent.

[scoutldr]

Hmmmm...if the "King of Siam" is taboo, can we still do "Birds in the Wilderness"??? Singling out a scout for embarrassment and ridicule?

 

Just asking. I love Birds in the Wilderness...and the King of Siam.

[BrentAllen]

The boys usually sing it about the late Patrol. They have been known to sing it about particular boys, but my preference is Patrols. Embarrassment? Maybe a little. Ridicule? No more so than reminding a Scout about Totin'Chip rules if he is violating them around camp.

[evmori]

Why is the "King of Siam" taboo?

[highcountry]

We had 5 "challenging" scouts last year at our summer camp, in addition I had to deal with several challenging parents that made the experience so bad, that I am not going to go to summer camp myself this year.

 

One scout has considerable behavioral issues and we told the parents he could not go to summer camp this year unless a parent went along. The fatehr is a problem too so the mother agreed to go although I was not thrilled with this (The kid needs to have the apron strings cut as a piece of his problems). In April she informed us she couldn't go, we were aboput to tell her the son could no longer go but he made things easy, he physically attacked another scout at one of our local campouts and was banned from Summer camp and all activities for 6 months. (They since have apparently quit the troop which is really a good thing).

 

2 others are just lazy goof offs, one did not stay at the February re-charter, the other is nearing 17, is only first class and is into school sports and band, he is indicating he has had his fun and is quiting the troop, he is the way hew is. The 4th scout has behavioral issues and the parent (A very goood parent and relaible committee member) knows the son hs some problems and agrees he is not ready for summer camp and did not sign him up this year for camp. The last one is a manipulator who acts clean and innocent but all the boys know he is lazy and puts in more effort to avoid work than actually doing the work itself. He blew off waiter duty last year, skipped out of a trail project at camp, blew off all his merit badges to go and eat candy at the trading post etc.

 

At the end of the week the scouts who were pulling theri weight at camp were fed up, we had a meeting and it was decided they would get latrine duty. Our SPL talke dtot he neighboring troop we shared the latrines with and arranged that they had no more latrine duty for the week. The 5 lazy/problem scouts took care of all the remaining latrine duty fo the last half of the week. The scouts who were fed up with the 5 problem scouts took particular delight in hearing the problem 5 complain and whine how unfair it was and how they hated cleaning latrines. I don't think the problem 5 leanred anything but the balance of the scouts learned how do deal with such problems and that was good.