Scout spirit, "active" and attendance

[fgoodwin]

BSA moved the FAQ that defined these terms:

 

Rank Advancement

 

 

 

Question: Rank advancement requires a Scout to demonstrate Scout spirit. How is Scout spirit defined and determined?

 

Answer: Scout spirit applies to how a Scout lives and conducts his daily life. He shows Scout spirit by being a role model to his peers, living by the Scout Oath and Law. The concept of Scout spirit is not based on how many Scouting events or outings a Scout attends, but rather by how he helps bring out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude in his daily life.

 

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?

 

Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

 

1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

 

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position.

[evmori]

All this is gonna do is stir the pot again, Fred!

 

How is active defined for the lower ranks?

 

Why does the responsibility to maintain contacts fall on the unit leaders? They aren't the ones who are required to be active for a rank requirement.

[SMT224]

To me, it's quality, not formulaic quantity.

 

And it depends totally on the Scout.

 

Some Scouts are a 100% Scout in any of the activities they engage in, and if they miss a few, no big deal. These Scouts score high on Scout Spirit because they are into Scouting and all the activities associated with Scouting. They like Troop meetings and they especially like camping. These guys are great leaders and are inspiring for everyone. they live Scouting all the time, not just on Troop activities.

 

Other Scouts, who may not really be into Scouting, but come because mom & dad hope it'll instill some character. Or they come to a few meetings and activities because they want to hang with some friends and barely put up with the rest of Scouting, and then spend most of their goofing off and getting out of work. These guys have very little Scout Spirit, and are very disappointed after a Scoutmaster Conference as they have come to think that should get their advancement just for showing up occasionally and semi-participating.

[click23]

evmori asked: "How is active defined for the lower ranks? "

 

It is not, because being "active" is not a requirement for the lower ranks.

[Twocubdad]

SPEED LIMIT 65

 

A driver is considered to be within the speed limit if:

 

1. He holds a current driver's license (driver's license fees paid)

2. He has not had his driver's license revolked

3. Law enforcements engages the driver and informs him of the posted speed limits.

 

Let me know how that works for you.

 

 

Or try this:

 

"To gain full advantage of all that Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If you're there, you can do your part to make you patrol and troop a success."

-- Boy Scout Handbook, pg. 169

 

If national wants to change the requirements to reflect the registered=active standard, they can dang well do it. I believe we are about to get new handbooks later in the summer, right? That will be a good opportunity to make the change. Until then, they'll have to over rule our troop's active=active standard on appeal.

 

 

[emb021]

"If national wants to change the requirements to reflect the registered=active standard, they can dang well do it. I believe we are about to get new handbooks later in the summer, right? That will be a good opportunity to make the change. Until then, they'll have to over rule our troop's active=active standard on appeal."

 

Sorry, but National already did that.

 

That's been policy for some time. And been a topic of conversation on-line the whole while.

 

Bottom line. active=registered. Any troop with some kind of 'active standard' WILL be overruled should a scout appeal it to a higher authority. Hence why units are recommended (thru the FAQ noted) to not do it.

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I understand that. This ain't my first rodeo.

 

But as long as the requirement states a Scout must "Be active in your troop and patrol..." I will stick to the plain-language understanding of those words as I learned them at my mother's knee. Some FAQ on some web site doesn't change that.

 

You don't set the speed limit at 65 miles per hour then redefine the phrase "speed limit" to mean "any speed at which a driver may wish to drive." Limit means limit. Active means active.

 

If national's intent is that a Scout only be a registered member of the BSA (a perfectly reasonable requirement) then they should change requirement 1 to "Be a registered member of the Boy Scouts of America...." Very simple, very clean, no ambiguity. If and when that change occurs I will apply the new requirement with the same vigor I apply the current requirement.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Twocubdad, that's a great analogy.

Personally, I think the requirement should be scrubbed. Its just too subjective. You can't expect equal rigor on the requirement from unit to unit. So its worthless. Just drop it from the book. Replace it with some more WB management stuff, something really objective.

[nolesrule]

"Some FAQ on some web site doesn't change that."

 

I thought it was printed in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book. I don't have a copy, but I've seen several websites that cite that as their source for the definition of active.

 

The speed limit analogy isn't a good one. 65mph is 65mph. It's measurable on a radar gun, on a spedometer, it's the same.

 

But define active in scouting. Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 answers.

 

Is it showing up to 50% of meetings? 30%? 75%?

 

Is it attending 90% of camping trips? 25%? 40% 60%?

 

Who gets to set the percentage criteria? the PLC? The Scoutmaster? The Troop Committee? The Advancement Chair? The district? The council?

 

What happens when these groups disagree?

 

Is it fair to a scout that two different units have different criteria as to what is active?

 

The active periods don't have to be consecutive months. If you set a percentage, what method of calculation do you use? Is it based on days? weeks? months?

 

If you set your criteria for 50% active and he shows up to 1 meeting a month for 12 months, does that meet the criteria?

 

It's only 25% for the 12 months, but if you calculate in 2-week periods, it's 50% for 6 months.

 

 

(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[evmori]

It is not, because being "active" is not a requirement for the lower ranks.

 

Ah but it is! There is a requirement to participate in xx Troop events. Key word participate.

 

Does active = participate?

 

Why, for the upper ranks, is this requirement so vague?

[sandspur]

Here we go again!

I find myself agreeing with twocubdad in principle. Active means active. Just because you registered nine months ago and the SM sent you update e-mails doesnt mean youre active if you havent been around much since then.

Trouble is, the devil is in the details. There is always someone trying to quantify and measure the word active. These efforts run all the way from reasonable (hey, you havent been to a meeting or camped in six months!) to the ridiculous.

Ridiculous: The ASM in charge of signing off on this requirement who uses a computer to calculate achievement based on a formula inputting attendance at meetings, service projects, camps, SPL evaluation, ASM evaluation, a couple of fudge factors and PRESTO! You get 3.5 months credit for a six month POR. I am not making this up!

I have come to the conclusion that you cannot write a requirement clearly enough to stop the pedantic among us. I just hope reason will prevail and try to work around the pedantic.

 

[Beavah]

Personally, I think the requirement should be scrubbed. Its just too subjective. You can't expect equal rigor on the requirement from unit to unit. So its worthless.

 

Yah, Gern might be bein' a bit sarcastic here, eh? Or not.

 

Me, I think whether it's parenting or scouting working with humans is always subjective. We humans are just too complex to be reduced to some simplistic requirement, especially when it comes to learnin' character. In fact, whenever we set up a set of simple (or complex) rules, da most rational thing is what happens in these forums (and real life) all the time, eh? We work around 'em, we litigate 'em, we change our approach so the rule becomes irrelevant. Or we apply da rule where we shouldn't.

 

Scouting is subjective. Whether it's knowin' what to do when lost or signin' off on treatment for shock or decidin' what Scout Spirit means for First Class rank. That's why we have adult scouters, eh? If da whole thing could be reduced to an objective rulebook, we could code it into a computerized video game and be done! (or be like sandspur's fellow with da ridiculous spreadsheet ).

 

Da former Boy Scout program office folks that worked with advancement wrote up that FAQ and active=registered. They've since been reorganized. Who knows what da next group will do? The BSA policy, however, remains da same:

 

An active youth member is one who, with the approval of a parent or guardian if necessary, becomes a member of a unit; obligates himself or herself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfills a member's obligation to the unit; subscribes to the Scout Oath or the code of his or her respective program; and participates in an appropriate program based on a member's age. - BSA Rules & Regulations

 

That's subjective, eh? Even might vary between units that have differently defined "member's obligation to the unit."

 

Anyone tries to put in some objective thing like active=registered, even if they're an Irving employee, just isn't following da Rules.

 

But I am a bit puzzled, eh? Was fgoodwin makin' a point, or just feelin' da need to tell us every time National fixes a broken or misplaced website link? They certainly have a lot of 'em these days!

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[nolesrule]

Beavah, that's in the rules and regs, but that's not the official advancement policy. Different documents have different definitions of "active", but for the purposes of advancement, the "law" is the ACP&P.

[Beavah]

Nope, nolesrule. Da "law" is the Rules & Regulations. That's the only one scouters sign on their application that they agree to support, eh? And it's da official rules of the organization.

 

Da rest is just program materials put out by some staff folks or whoever is maintain' the website this week.

 

A bit like the difference between the Constitution and an advisory document put out by an executive department. Da Rules and Regs definition is the Constitution. Da laws would be da program policies of a division (like the black-letter stuff in G2SS). Da regulations would be stuff like the Boy Scout Requirements book. What we're talkin' here is an advisory circular put out by staff on how they might interpret a regulation.

 

Not that all such legal falderol matters a whit when we're talkin' about a kids' program. Da real answer is da answer to the question "What do we want to teach our kids?" I expect most everybody agrees that we want to teach the lads that serving actively means somethin' more than being registered.

 

But if you're into legal falderol, I expect yeh want to teach that followin' da law means first and foremost protectin' and defendin' the Constitution .

 

Beavah

 

[nolesrule]

"An active youth member is one who, with the approval of a parent or guardian if necessary, becomes a member of a unit; obligates himself or herself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfills a member's obligation to the unit; subscribes to the Scout Oath or the code of his or her respective program; and participates in an appropriate program based on a member's age. - BSA Rules & Regulations "

 

That's a bit meaningless, isn't it?

 

Obligates himself to attend the meetings regularly - doesn't actually say you have to attend regularly, just obligate yourself. Making a commitment and following through are 2 entirely different things.

 

fulfills a member's obligation to the unit - what exactly does that mean?

 

 

 

Hoestly, I don't know how you can fulfill the POR requirement (or the laternative project requirement for Star/Life) without being active, so none of this should ever be an issue.