more adding to the Eagle application requirements VENT

[FScouter]

I disagree. It tells troop adults that they must find some way to keep boys active OTHER THAN writing a troop rule in the troop bylaws. Boys don't respond to adult written rules in adult documents. They DO respond to an engaging program.

 

If you rely on an advancement rule to keep them active, you're only hope is that they will somehow desire a patch. Scouting isn't really about using a stick to motivate boys to get a patch? They learn Scouting values by willingly and enthusiastically participating in the program. If they're not interested, a rule isn't likely to help.

[BrentAllen]

FScouter, I guess we will have to agress to disagree.

 

From the cases I've read about here, the problem usually arises when a boy has been absent for a year or two, and as he closes in on his 18th birthday, he (orhis parents) suddenly wants to get his Eagle. The Troop has been offering a program that is engaging and challenging to the rest of the boys, but this one chose not to participate. HE made the choice, but now he doesn't want to live with the consequences. So, who is having the trouble with values here? The leaders were there volunteering every week for a Troop meeting. They were there supervising trips every month, taking time away from their families. They were there giving up their vacation time to attend Summer Camp. Where was this absent Scout?

 

Then, the Troop leaders get villified for sticking to their values. They want to teach the boys there are no free rides in life, you have to earn your way. But instead, National teaches you can skip out, not be a team player, and find a short-cut. I've had my say. I agree to disagree.

[evmori]

Shouldn't the responsibility to be active be the Scout's responsibility? After all, they are the ones earning ranks, not the adults. The adults should be supplying the opportunity for the Scouts to advance & the Scouts should be taking advantage of those opportunities to earn ranks and by doing so staying active! Why is the responsibility placed on the adults?

[Daddy_O]

Greetings group,

 

 

 

This is an interesting discussion. No offence to the volunteer leadership intended, but there is some megalomaniac behavior displayed here.

 

How dare these petty tyrants make up rules as they go along?

 

Beavah, I dont think your (or my) local government could have put a man on the moon, or won WW II. Sometimes (albeit rarely) the Big government gets it right!

 

 

If and when my boy gets to this penultimate step, Ill pay a couple of hundred bucks and have my lawyer send in the application and appropriate documentation. No sweat, then just sit back and send out the invitations to the ECOH.

 

Best regards

 

--D_O

 

ps: Im waiting for my punch in the face from the conformists in the group.

 

[nolesrule]

[shakes head... again]

 

This forum troll thing is getting old.

[packsaddle]

Troll? Huh?

[nolesrule]

I was referring to Daddy_O's posts.

[Beavah]

It tells troop adults that they must find some way to keep boys active OTHER THAN writing a troop rule in the troop bylaws.

 

Yah, this is just a fiction, eh?

 

The units that have adults who aren't running an engaging program lose the boys to other troops or activities. They shrink. Some fold. There's no need for 'em to deal with "hangers on" with participation expectations, because the lads just leave. They don't see anything valuable to hang on for.

 

When yeh have hangers on, we're talkin' about units where lots of boys are active, and the adults are runnin' a fine program which serves those boys. That's where some lads want the prize because they see the unit program as bein' something valuable, but they haven't learned character and citizenship that well yet. So they do what boys do. They try to skate by. They try to play the system to do the minimum. They push da boundaries to see whether the adults really care about their values. Or their parents push for 'em.

 

That's the sign of a good program, eh? They have values and expectations which boys push against and test.

 

Boys don't respond to adult written rules in adult documents.

 

As oft as not, these participation rules are put in place by (or at least supported by) the youth PLC. I challenge yeh to find any youth who thinks it's fair to give some kid the same award he got when that kid didn't do the same work he did. Kids have a very acute sense of fairness, eh?

 

And when we don't demonstrate that same sense of fairness, they dismiss our awards as bein' worthless. Which, quite frankly, they are.

 

Beavah

 

[Twocubdad]

You know, Daddy-O, when you first posted with the question about finding a do-nothing Eagle mill troop for your son, my first thought was "this guy is my worst nightmare." But I tried to tone down my response and politely suggested you consider another outlet for your son. I even felt bad when others jumped in with much more Scout-like explainations of the methods of Scouting

 

One lesson I have to learn over and over is my first impressions of people are usually correct.

[evmori]

Boys don't respond to adult written rules in adult documents.

 

Huh? Correct me if I am mistaken, but aren't all the BSA written rules written by adults in adult documents? And don't the boys follow them?

[Daddy_O]

2-cub dad,

 

Sorry if I offended you, sincerely. I don't want "a do nothing troop I thought it was pretty clear. Some of the other regulars on this site have IMed me with a lot of help. I appreciate it.

 

What I've learned from all this, as well as my own observations, is that there are a lot of bullies in scouting. Grown men who can't compete against other grown men, so they push around little boys.

 

Well, not my kid. I'm teaching him, by example, how to be a man, and he gets it.

 

That is what this whole thread is about. Some grown man decides to pick on a kid, and belittle him by refusing to put through the papers. Only the lowliest beta-male would behave like this. That wouldn't work with me.

 

Maybe this is a minority; I surely hope so. These guys may be clean, and may be reverent, but they sure aint brave

 

D_O

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

DaddyO

 

As originator of this thread, I can tell you that you are completely wrong in your assessment of the situation. Not even close. The DAC is a fine person and is not trying to belittle nor bully anyone. I was frustrated with the inconsistancy of the wording on how our council required the letters, nothing more. I have since learned from others on this forum that the Council has discretion when requiring letters so I've learned well from this post.

 

Forgive me, but what you are teaching your kid, by example, is that its ok to make blanket assumptions on a whole group of good people by using one unfortunate situation to justify your actions.

 

Perhaps we're making assumptions about you as well, and for that I'm sorry, but we scouters are a loyal group so to characterize many of us as 'bullies' is going to get a reaction...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NeilLup]

At the risk of bringing on severe flames, as I understand your situation, it is the following:

 

1) Your son, in April, submitted his Eagle application

2) The District has some procedures which it requires and is asking that your son and you follow these procedures. They sound a bit strict but probably not beyond the pale, particularly if they are giving guidance on how to comply with these procedures

3) The whole reason for this problem and your anger is that your daughter is moving out of state and June and you want her to be able to attend the Court of Honor. So you want the Eagle application to be processed, the Board of Review held, the application then processed by your local council, sent to the National Council, approved by the National Council, Court of Honor planned and scheduled, etc. by June.

 

Is there some reason why, if necessary, your daughter cannot return from wherever she is going to attend the Court of Honor? I know that money can be tight but we recently purchased airline tickets from Boston to San Francisco for less thatn $200. There is a saying I have heard which is "Your failure to plan ahead does not create an emergency for me." I am sure that your District and Council officials will do everything they reasonably can, but to anticipate that they will cut corners on procedures and move heaven and earth on timing just so that you can be spared the expense and trouble of having your daughter return for the Court of Honor could well be considered a bit much. Besides that, she will presumably be returning for other reasons at some time in the near future and the Court of Honor could be held at that time.

 

Your son's time as an Eagle Scout begins from the date of his Board of Review. So for eligibility for Eagle Scout Scholarships, Eagle Palms, etc. The Court of Honor date is of no particular significance. I know of Scouts who have had their Court of Honor many months after the Board of Review at times because of relatives in the military, etc. No particular permission or approval is required for such a delay or even not to have a Court of Honor at all.

 

When I look at matters from the point of view of your District/Council officials, I believe that I can see another side.

[CA_Scouter]

Neil, coupla things... I didn't mean to come across as angry, just frustrated.

 

1) We had the application ready April 1. With the runaround with the letters, we did not get it submitted until this last Tuesday.

 

2) Yes, but the procedure is vaguely worded. I flew off the handle a bit when I posted this originally, hence the VENT at the end of my subject line.

 

3) Yes, but I think that submitting this 8 weeks prior to her leaving is a reasonable amount of lead time. Our council usually turns these around in 2-3 weeks and then we get it back from Irving in usually 2 weeks. My last two Eagles had this turnaround time.

 

I think your admonition is a bit out of place. I did not expect them to move heaven and earth but to accept the 4 letters of recommendation we submitted the first time. My son was asked to submit two more, from an adult leader and from a teacher, and to be safe, he asked 2 persons in each category, so now he has 8. These were accepted last Tuesday.

 

Yes, I'm aware that the Board of Review date is what counts. I've been doing this for a while and know such things. He turns 18 in August so he must have that BOR in the first week of May.

 

All this being said, the DAC worked with my son to verify all numbers and dates on the application last Tuesday so they could turn it around quickly. He has indicated he should be able to get the BOR done next week.

 

I have not said anything to the DAC and despite my initial frustrations I will not say anything about the delay at all. I may at some point suggest that the wording on their 'cheat sheet' be adjusted to be less ambiguous but that's about it. I've learned a lot from the posters on this thread and am fortunate to have this resource available so I don't shoot my mouth off unneccessarily.

 

;-)

 

Thanks All!

 

 

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

OK, humble pie time. You'll get a laugh out of this!

 

I get a call from the DAC Sunday night. Hoo Boy! I'm excited, we're gonna get the BOR done this week. I am so relieved.

 

EXCEPT - He tells me the paperwork hasn't come back from council yet, but can I serve on an Eagle BOR for another scout on Tuesday night?

 

BOING!

 

So I figure the Big Guy is testing me. I know that patience is a virtue and that sometimes I'm in short supply.

 

So I accept the invite and I was fortunate to meet a fine young man whom we approved for his Eagle Rank last night.

 

DAC got the paperwork yesterday and Son's BOR is tomorrow night.