more adding to the Eagle application requirements VENT

[gcnphkr]

They may not require the letters, the can ask that forms be given to the references, but it is ultimately the advancement committee's responsibility to contact the references.

 

I don't were he gets a need for a reference from a leader in the troop at all. Parent, educator, pastor plus at least two more references and an employer if available. From your description your son did not have a reference from an educator. You can hardly fault the DAC for asking for that, did your son at least provide the reference?

[packsaddle]

Looks like unanimity on this thread and I won't disagree. In fact my anger at bean-counters in general is already rising just from reading the account. Shower the guy with worthless paper and tell him that you did it in the true spirit of scouting.

Heck, post the address and I bet a bunch of us would write letters - the DAC address, that is, and the letters would help drive the point home.

Need a cup of coffee to calm down.

[eisely]

As I recall (subject to correction) the advancement rules require the eagle candidate to provide references and the EBOR, or its agents, to obtain information from those references about the candidate. There is no reason this could not be done via telephone calls within the rules. Every district I have ever heard of requires letters because this is a more efficient process, at least for the people coordinating the EBORs. Relying on oral references is a process that would quickly break down and become way too time consuming for the volunteers involved.(This message has been edited by eisely)

[gcnphkr]

It might be helpful to remember that even though providing the letters is not a requirement, it is helpful and expedites the process. Without the letters the council designee must contact the references, which can take time. So, while I disagree with the odd requirement of having letters from unit leaders and even requiring that letters be provided, you should remember that you are the one on a tight schedule and therefore should be doing what you can to expedite this by having letters from the five references ready to go. Otherwise you would need to wait for the references to be called, or more likely sent a letter requesting a reference and then a follow up call to those who did not send a letter in a timely manner. Which is better, being able to schedule a EBOR in a week or sometime in the next three months?

 

If I were this DAC and you flooded me with letters then you could plan on this EBOR occurring sometime in early July. Not only is a scout courteous, he is thrifty and doesn't cut off his nose to spite his face.

[Beavah]

Da rank application clearly lists a requirement for providing references from a parent, a religious official, an educational official, an employer (if any), and two others. Council is allowed to determine how those references are contacted, and expecting letters is just fine.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would expect that a parent, a parent's friend, etc. would be sufficient when it asks in black and white for an educational and employer reference?

 

Our Eagle Scouts are going to fill out college applications at some point, eh? It's necessary to read those, too.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[packsaddle]

This council does not require anything more that what is on the Eagle application. The council is free to make the contacts if they want.

Every time I've seen ANYTHING more than the application go to council, the council has refused the added materials and taken only the application form...and I've never heard of a single call or request for a letter. Guess we're just lucky.

Edited for clarity(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[CA_Scouter]

Ya. Beav.. don't make stuff up eh? I didn't say he can't read nor fill out da app correctly, I only indicated our experience with da DAC.

 

Cut and pasted from the Eagle Scout Application:

 

REQUIREMENT 2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would

be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf.

 

It does not state that the candidate is required to provide the letters. There is not even a mention of 'letter' in the statement. Son met the requirement, he entered the names of all the references listed.. educational, religious, leader, parent, and two other references, exactly as stated on the application.

 

He had letters from religious, parent/leader, and two other references. Educational guy hadn't responded yet to his request.

 

J56 - glad you're not our DAC.

 

Folks, I said I was half serious about the flood of letters. Just venting...

 

 

 

 

[gcnphkr]

Most people respond to being dumped on by making life difficult for the dumper, even the nicest are less likely to do them any favours. Getting all pissy about how letters are not mentioned on the application doesn't do your son any good.

 

As the SM I make it a point to know not only what the district or council expects but I also find out what the scouts can do to make the process simpler for the DAC. Our district has between 6 and 12 EBORs each month. Contacting 60 references is a lot of work for a volunteer who likely has a job, family and other responsibilities. Making sure that he has reference letters is a small courtesy on the scouts part.

 

Sure, I can take the approach of, "I did what was required" or I can be thoughtful, courteous and smart by making life as easy as possible for the person who is doing what he needs to do to conduct an EBOR on my behalf.

[nolesrule]

Forget references or letters. As a Life Scout they made me fill out an application for Eagle Scout. That wasn't listed in my handbook under any of the requirements. I tried to explain that it wasn't a requirement, but that wacky District Advancement Committee just wouldn't schedule my EBOR without one.

 

A bit tongue in cheek, but the DAC does have leeway regarding how they handle requirement #2 in regards to soliciting recommendations. Their mistake here was not making their procedure known ahead of time, if indeed they did not.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Beavah]

Yah, CA_Scouter. Like nolesrule says, I agree it can be confusin'. Da Boy Scouts Requirement Book doesn't include things that the application form requires, and neither include things that the project workbook requires or that the district expects.

 

I appreciate your quotes, but when yeh read the other documents, you discover that the Advancement Committee can indeed use letters, and that the candidate can be expected to deliver reference forms and envelopes to the references. "The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references."

 

The committee shouldn't wait overlong for late letters, eh? But in this case, you're askin' the committee to expedite a BOR, rather than followin' da normal schedule which would allow time for letters to come in. Only natural that they expect you to help expedite the letters, IMO.

 

The bureaucratic process for Eagle Scout is a bit out of control, perhaps, though I honestly don't get da angst that letters of reference seem to cause some folks. Regardless, don't shoot da poor volunteers in your district on that account. Especially not when they're tryin' to be helpful when quite a few districts would not go out of their way for your timing request.

 

Beavah

 

[CA_Scouter]

Ya, Jet, see my first post. Everything you said I covered.. and surely you can tell that most of my rant was tongue-in-cheek. ( or foot in mouth, you choose ;-) ).

 

Nolesrule... correct, the wording was ambiguous at best, that's what frosted me. If you are going to require these things at least make it perfectly clear...

 

Ya Beav.. same comment as for Jet... I'm more than willing to help out, its just the ambiguity that set me off... we tried very hard to get everything together beforehand so we wouldn't have to ask him to expedite...

 

I think it will all work out... I've done my chanting and am one with myself again... ;-)

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

"The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references."

 

The above statement is fairly specific about what the council 'may' ask the scout to do. Does the scout store sell these blank reference forms? Or does the council supply them with the application? I admit, I've never seen one.

But I have not read those 'other' documents cover to cover. Where do they mention the council asking the scout to collect letters and to bring them to the EBOR or to the council?

[GKlose]

In my opinion, I think CA_Scouter has a good point. Especially if you go back to his original argument. Even given the latitude the district advancement committee has via the Advancement Committee policies document, in this particular case CA_Scouter mentioned that the Eagle application was rejected twice. Not a statement like "incomplete application" but "rejected."

 

He said the DAC will not accept an application without letters. Council says a minimum of 3. Four were provided, from SM/parent, two personal friends (military officer; high-tech company executive) and his pastor.

 

Application rejected a second time because of "wrong" letters: SM/parent letter counted as parent letter, and letter from troop leader is required; a letter from a teacher is required.

 

Given all that, we're not even sure that with the council-added requirement of a minimum of 3 letters required, what 3 are required? We know that troop leader and school teacher letters are required (the basis of the second rejection). Which one is the third? The pastor? The parent? An independent source (which, outside of the pastor, seems to be the most useful of all, in terms of identifying living up to the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in everyday life).

 

All in all, I can't say I'm surprised, though. I recently heard (at a district committee meeting), someone say "I'm glad I didn't have to do my own Eagle project in my son's troop -- you should see what they have to go through." Everyone always seems to have a rationale for it too, such as "well, we have really high standards for our Eagles" (as if what is already printed in black and white isn't a high-enough standard).

 

Guy

 

[gcnphkr]

 

The above statement is fairly specific about what the council 'may' ask the scout to do. Does the scout store sell these blank reference forms? Or does the council supply them with the application?

Our council supplies them in a packet that is given to scouts when they reach Life. They are also available for download on the website.

 

Where do they mention the council asking the scout to collect letters and to bring them to the EBOR or to the council?

They do not say this. It is step 6 from "The 12 Steps From Life to Eagle" which is in the Advancement Guide and the Eagle Scout Leadership ServiceProject Workbook (something that every Eagle candidate should haveread). Here is the entire section:

 

When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association). The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application, either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The council determines the method or methods to be used.) The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses. The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

This DAC is wrong in requiring that the candidate supply these letters. The DAC is also wrong in requiring that there be a letter from a troop leader. CA_Scouter has some legitimate beefs, which he should pursue. But having the EBOR expeditedmakes it so that long before the application was filled out and submitted they should have been in contact with the DAC to find out what could be done to help make this go quick and smooth. CA_Scouter has been a SM for over three years. It is a little hard to imagine that he never had an opportunity to know any of the district procedures until it was his son.(This message has been edited by jet526)

[CA_Scouter]

"...never had an opportunity to know any of the district procedures until it was his son."

 

Ouch. Ummm, I knew at least ONE district procedure in my term as SM. Maybe even 2. No way on three though.