Added Requirements

[Kudu]

"Maybe it's time to realize the requirements have changed. Maybe not for the better but they have changed. Continuing to spout old requirements ad nauseum is getting old & actually has no point."

 

I used the terms "standards" and "expectations," as in the Eagle Scouts in that Scoutmaster's Troop rose to the expectation of six 50-Milers.

 

If you see Scouting as the ultimate program for boys, then the standards from the era when every boy wanted to be a Boy Scout are a blueprint for adventure.

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

Beavah writes:

 

"Yah, but I see this has now become a Kudu thread. Ah well. That'll be the end of it."

 

Only if you persist in your ad hominem streak, Beavah.

 

Beavah writes:

 

" I assume his point is that the SM's position isn't unreasonable, when looked at from the point of view of the whole scouting movement."

 

No, I look at it from a biological point of view. The physics of moving through 300 miles of backcountry are essentially the same for this Scoutmaster's Scouts as they were for traditional Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

For Baden-Powell, Scouting values can only be formed by these wilderness experiences, which he called "The Religion of the Backwoods:"

 

Some may object that the religion of the Backwoods is also a religion of the backward; and to some extent it is so. It is going back to the primitive, to the elemental, but at the same time it is to the common ground on which most forms of religion are based --- namely, the appreciation of God and service to one's neighbor.

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm

 

Such Scoutcraft is the kind of adventure mandated by our Congressional Charter.

 

Kudu

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Rick (as in ghermanno)...

 

Like Beavah said, do look at the first 14 pages of ACP&P (especially pp 9-14, which apply to your operating committee). You have several roles, but educating unit serving leaders, and especially direct contact leaders is clearly one of your roles

 

Just remember: Your responsibility is to Cubbing, Boy Scouting, and Venturing.

 

 

[ghermanno]

Thanks guys,

 

Yes, I do training for Council and District for the Training Chair. Yes I do believe that one of my many responsabilities, even without authority, is to "ensure BSA procedures are standard throughout the District" and to train volunteers about not adding/deleting requirements (with exception to physical or mental limitations).

 

I do NOT think I did anything wrong Beavah. I made my statemant, did NOT get confrontational, and reported to DE. I did NOT overstep my authority as I did NOT tell the SM that he could not run a Troop or anything that infringed upon his running of the Troop. My job is NOT to hide in the sand either. I would love to work with the Unit Commissioner for that unit and teh Council Advancement Chair if I ever meet them. I attend Roundtable and the Commisssioners/Committee metings for the District and have yet to meet them. That is why I came here for council.

 

I know there is no cut and dry response and I thank all of you for your time and thoughts.

 

Thanks Kudu but the cave man had to kill the animals for food. I am not going to ask the scouts to start killing livestock to store up nor kill the family pets either. I'd rather they, or their parents, went to the store to buy the food.

 

Again, Thanks all.

 

YiS,

 

Rick

[Kudu]

Our Congressional Charter is the instrument that gives the BSA a corporate monopoly on Scouting in the United States. This arrangement is subject to a formal yearly review, which is why you see Boy Scouts in the Oval Office every February.

 

These are the "rights and responsibilities" we should be teaching Boy Scouts:

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes: The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

If Roundtables were run by volunteers concerned with not adding/deleting from these requirements, I would attend more often

 

ghermanno writes:

 

Yes I do believe that one of my many responsabilities, even without authority, is to "ensure BSA procedures are standard throughout the District" and to train volunteers about not adding/deleting requirements...I am not going to ask the scouts to ... kill the family pets

 

Yes, this Scoutmaster's 300 mile program was typical when our purpose was set on June 15, 1916, but now his Scouts could earn Eagle without ever stepping into the woods with a pack on their backs. If only you could get these boys to Roundtable, ghermanno, the kittens and puppies in your District would be safe

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eamonn]

Many of us who have spent some time serving at the District /Council level have heard things that are maybe not right.

While of course anything which would harm or hurt a child does need to be dealt with ASAP.

The other times?

Is very much a judgment call.

I think in one song Rod Stewart has a line:

"What's the point of talking if no one is listening?"

Very often the people who are doing their own thing (Dare I use the term "Tweaking"?) Know what they are doing is not the way it is supposed to done.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to take plenty of no notice.

Sometimes (I'll admit I do this when someone is getting up my nose!) It is worth just telling the person "Hey you know and I know that what your doing is just wrong! Then just walk away.

If the person doesn't know? Then of course things are different and it is worth your while explaining what is what and where to go to find the right information.

Telling the DE?

I'm not sure what the point of that might be?

A lot of times the guys who come up with this stuff really do have the best intentions.

Some think that they are doing something to save the BSA by adding this stuff. They have the full support of the Committee and maybe even the CO.

Of course when something goes wrong they will find out that they may not have the support of the District or the Council.

When this happens they tend to blame the District or the Council for not supporting them!

But maybe it's worth mentioning that in the 25 years I've been around the BSA, I only know of two Scouts who have made an appeal to National.

Eamonn.

 

[shortridge]

(Sorry in advance for the length.)

 

Looking at this from a slightly different perspective ...

 

I'd be very interested in looking at this unit's outdoor program calendar, and figuring out how they fit in multiple 50 milers in a year's time, plus do the "regular" outdoor program that younger Scouts can partake of.

 

Assuming about 12 miles traveled per day (about six hours on the trail, a reasonable pace ... can any paddling experts do the on-the-water calculations?), that's four days required for every 50-miler. Add another day for total travel time, and you've got most of a week that leaders have to be off work and Scouts have to be out of school.

 

So unless this unit does multiple 50-milers over the summer (maybe one in place of residential summer camp?), plus one each during spring break and during Christmas/New Year's break, it would take more than a couple of years to fit six 50-milers in - and that assumes, of course, that all Scouts can attend all of the treks. And we all know that doesn't happen, when you add in family vacations, spring break trips and holiday travel plans for both leaders and Scouts.

 

If the unit has some sort of magic plan for scheduling these trips, I'd like to hear it. Maybe they're one of these giant troops with lots of ASMs who have plenty of time off and ultra-flexible schedules to accompany the boys. (This assumes, of course, that they're not an independent Patrol trek-style troop.)

 

I think the natural next questions to the SM, phrased in a friendly manner, would be if he's ever turned down a Scout who "just" had five treks under his belt, why he selected that number for a cutoff, and how he and the PLC manage to make sure that all Scouts get the same opportunity to go on a sufficient number of expeditions over a couple of years.

 

Additional questions... Curiously: Does he make exceptions for the Scout who joins at age 16, or would he just tell him bluntly: "No. You cannot earn Eagle in this troop"? And: If the troop just does one 50-miler a year, say, then a Scout that joins right from Webelos can't earn Eagle before age 16?

 

The thought also occurs to me that perhaps this SM is one of those full-of-hot-air types who likes to brag on his Scouts' manly-men outdoor expertise when reality is something entirely different.

[Beavah]

The thought also occurs to me that perhaps this SM is one of those full-of-hot-air types who likes to brag on his Scouts' manly-men outdoor expertise when reality is something entirely different.

 

Yah, or maybe he's one of those wonderful Scoutmasters who is able to pull off a truly wonderful program that leaves da rest of us in awe. Perhaps because he keeps to the Scout Oath and Law and is friendly, courteous, and kind to his fellow Scoutmasters. I reckon all of us brag on our lads more than a little.

 

Honestly, shortridge has good questions. I'd love to learn from this SM. I've been around a lot of years, but I always learn a few new ideas and tricks from every SM that runs a successful program. It would be great to buy him a cup of coffee and hear what he thinks and how he sets up his kids to run such a range of activities.

 

My guess is that like lots of things, yeh really don't have to worry a whole lot about all da adult-driven rules and exceptions and what-ifs and such. If the boys are proud of their program, then I reckon they buy in and the culture of the unit takes care of the rest. No need for an adult to "turn down" a scout if the scout considers it a matter of his own honor to live up to the ideals and expectations of his group.

 

B