The Active Equals Registered Thing

[FScouter]

The point here, as I see it, has nothing to do with a precise definition of active. We all know when a kid is active and when hes not, yes? It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. If the program works, the boy is active and we achieve the mission. If the program isnt working the kid is not active and we dont achieve our mission. Active kids get more out of Scouting than inactive kids, semantics notwithstanding.

 

We serve no purpose at all in disparaging BSA, or declaring policies to be wishy-washy or contradictory, or arguing about what one document means v what some other document means. If a kid is not active, get him active or youve failed.

 

If writing a rule on the blackboard or posting troop bylaws or blocking advancement or withholding awards or parsing BSA documents helps achieve our mission, then go for it. If not, try creating an engaging troop program that lets kids WANT to be active. Of course thats more difficult.

[highcountry]

It is preposterous that the BSA program is there for us to coach boys into young men, teach things like responsibility, accountability and leadership, then turn around and in instances such as this, tell us thay can go ahead and earn achievements anyway even if they did not demonstrate those qualities we are supposed to see them develop. Why then even have requirements ? If that is how it works, then I'll head on down to my bosses office right now and demand I be promoted to CEO, ignoring the fact I don't demonstrate the apptitude or skills or experience required for the spot, heck, I was here and I was breathing, that's good enough by "the rules" and if he won't get me the position, I'll just go over his head and appeal. This is beyond ridiculous !

I have 2 Scouts currently who are somewhat of an issue regarding eagle. The closest one has demonstrated a somewhat poor attitide, work ethic and commitment, he is 12.5 weeks away from turning 18 and has been encouraged by me and others to pick it up or he won't get sign offs on his eagle. I could care less that he is registered and Breathing and wasn't bad enough to become suspended, he does not demonstrate the qualities of what it takes to be an Eagle scout. I view passing this kid along to Eagle just as poorly as saying a kid passed a merit badge who only did half the requirements.....he is not active, not participating and not showing leadership. Unless he has an epiphany and completely changes, he likely won't finish the 4 partiuals and one complete merit badge he needs, he has not even contacted anyone regarding an eagle project yet despite my leads, ideas and coaching. Both me, all the ASM's the CC, the Advancement and Merit badge counselours agree he is a lost cause. His parents can sometimes be butt heads so he is not only going to get a refusal from me and all the ASM's to sign scout spirit and scoutmaster conference, he is going to get delays on SM sign off on any eagle project, delays and rework requests from merit Coordinator for any partials and other delays until he is 18. At thsi point he is going to have to totaly convince all of us he is going to be an example of what an Eagle Scout is and to start pulling his own weight, not be nagged by his parents so they can get teh Eagel on his College apps when he didn't earn it. Any Appeal they might file is going to have to address not only the SM refusal to sign off on a conference and Spirit but the incomplete badges, the un done Eagle project etc. His detatchment was so bad, teh Board of review for his Life in December advised him they may want to set up a mid term board of review in March to let him know if he is in trouble regarding making eagle to give him enough time to turn it around. His particiaption and effort has been so bad, they felt it was not even worth having the meeting any more, that soon he will not have sufficient time to make it and it will all take care of itself. The delays and non sign off's will occur if he suddenly appears with 4 weeks to go with a bunch of merit badge write ups expecting for us to rush/drag him across the finish line. Bottom line it is not fair to all the kids who did the work and showed the qualities to warn eagle in teh past for a lazy kid like this to get rubber stamped so despite the word of the rule on active, we aren't doing it.

Second Scout has his head in the clouds, can't get motivated, has no idea where he is or what he is doing half the time, nice kid, not a drug user but just clueless (His parents are somewhat the same). he came to me last summer to sign off Spirit and SM review for Life and refused due to his lack of participation and attendance,he did nothing as a PL, gave him Den Chief and set out the expectations. I noted that at meetings I found he had no idea how to use a compass and map and other basic skills and he had no checkoffs from Merit and Advancement coordinator on his badges to Life. He did a good job as den Chief and came to the a SM review in December for life. I again sent him to the Avancement/merit coordinator for verification first.....he still needed to complete 2 eagle requierment badges that were partial for over 2 years ! I was amazed he came in looking for a SM conference and BOR and had not even bothered to look to see if he had all the requirements in place ! 4 months later, nothing changed except he is now 17 (still star). He is going to get a couple coaching sessions and after that let to his own to either pick it up and demonstrate responsibility or age out.

 

Can you tell I amk frustrated ?

[highcountry]

F scouter, I think one of your assumption's is terribly simplistic...to get him active or you have failed. For you to assume that a scoutmaster has failed because he is not able to get any individual kid to be active, that it is all on the scoutmaster and he can overcome any set of reasons for any scout's inactivity is un-realistic.

Scouts become inactive for many reasons, many of which a SM has little to no control over. If a SM is to avoid failure in your eyes, he would have to spend an extrordiary amount of time catering to the indiviual needs and characteristics of evey single dis-engaged scout. I prefer to put my time in providing a program the majority has asked for and what BSA intends I do my best to deliver. Are you saying you have never had an inactive or dropped out scout ? If you have then you have failed just like probably every single adult elader there has ever been. frequently the reason for inactivity and dropping out is in the hands of thee scout and there is where the "blame" lies, not with an adult leader who is providing a good program.

As for being active means you paid your dues and continued consuming oxygen....sorry, to EARN rank you have to make and effort and accomplish achievements.

As for the first problem Eagle candidate I outlined, he has had more communication, encouragement, coaching, goal setting, mentors his age, support from adults etc you could imagine, we had to nearly drag him across the finish line to life. He suggested the scouts doing more planning and prep work for meetings, I have tried to get him to take action and motivate others in this, but he appears the only effort he wanted to make in this regard was to make the suggestion and disappear. He wanted to do some cycling trips and skiing, we put it on the calendar, he didn't help organize or promote it despite my encouragement, he didn't even sign up foir the activities he wanted ! Afterward, his parents told mne he just got busy and didn't know what to do and was just hoping I would pick the ball up and run it for him.

Fscouter....you can't change every single individual, sometimes they decided to fail and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Eamonn]

Here I go sticking my neck out.

 

I like to think of this thing we call the "Program" as a menu.

The menu is what the PLC comes up with.

If we are lucky, it will provide what most and maybe if we are really lucky all of the Scouts want.

I have made lots of menus.

I'll admit that at times I have left off things that I don't like and made room for the things I like.

As a Leader I kinda, sorta did the same thing.

I kinda sorta pushed the PLC into doing things that I liked or I thought that they needed. (I don't like camping in the winter, so we didn't camp and opted to use cabins or hostels. -I like messing around with rope and pioneering so we did a lot of that kind of thing.)

Many of the boys who joined, didn't know any better! To them, what we did was Scouting.

Up until a few years back when I planned a menu, I didn't take into account the needs of others, none of this heart healthy diet stuff, no vegetarian dishes.

But if someone asked we went out of our way to accommodate them.

Our program should do the same thing.

We want the program to accommodate the Scout, not the Scout accommodate the program.

 

The first Troop that OJ was in was big into Merit Badges and Merit Badge classes. One Tuesday night (Troop night) he informed me that he wasn't going to Scouts. I was a little surprised as he had rarely missed a meeting.

He went on to tell me that the Troop was spending the next three or four weeks working on the Farm Farm Mechanics Badge and he wasn't interested in Farm Mechanics, so he wasn't going!

This was the only thing on the "Menu".

Should he have been penalized for non attendance?

 

I do think that before a Lad takes on a POR he needs to know what is expected and what is involved.

OJ was involved in a lot of after school activities. At one time he was going to run for SPL during the winter. This would have clashed with soccer, chorus and the school play.

When he seen that he wasn't going to be able to do the job, he waited till summer. (When he only had track which didn't interfere with Scouts.) I think taking the time to talk to a Lad and listen to him before allowing him to take on a POR, beats the heck out of complaining when he does a poor job.

 

A Eagle Scout BOR done by the District I serve denied a Lad Eagle Scout because they felt he wasn't active.

He had fulfilled the requirement of being active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout, but soon after had enrolled in a EMT course which fell on the same night as the Troop Meeting night. Which meant that he had not attended a meeting in some time.

Putting aside the fact that he had already met the requirement!

To my way of thinking, I could and can see that if he held certain POR's he would have let the Troop /Patrol down and not lived up to some parts of the Scout Law, but there are some POR that maybe he could have done and met the expectations of the job.

Is attending a EMT course a good reason to miss Troop meetings?

I think so.

 

At the end of the day I think it comes down to knowing the individual Scout.

If he isn't attending? Find out why.

If there is a problem? Fix it.

There is a big difference between "I'd sooner stay home and watch TV" and " I'm learning ...."

One size doesn't fit all.

The program has to meet the needs of the Scout.

If he has no need for the program?

Then he isn't active.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Lisabob]

highcountry wrote: "His parents can sometimes be butt heads so he is not only going to get a refusal from me and all the ASM's to sign scout spirit and scoutmaster conference, he is going to get delays on SM sign off on any eagle project, delays and rework requests from merit Coordinator for any partials and other delays until he is 18."

 

Yup I can tell you are frustrated! Do you really intend to construct fake barriers for this kid because his parents are "butt heads?" Poor kid, clearly he chose the wrong parents.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm never quite sure why so many adults in scouting are so focused on failure. Seems like any time a lad doesn't earn an award on a schedule someone has "failed." The boy has failed the BOR, the SM has failed the boy, the troop has failed the family.

 

I really do think there's a reason why the BSA goes way out of its way to avoid using the word "fail" in any of its literature. That, at least, is consistent. Boys just grow at their own pace, and receive recognitions when they deserve 'em.

 

Not giving a lad an award is not "blocking advancement" or "withholding awards." That's just not the way we think about advancement in Scouting.

 

Fact is, kids and programs and leaders are complicated things, eh? Sometimes a program can be dull or repetitious or a bit to adult-driven or a bit too youth-disorganized, and kids will drift away. Sometimes a kid will be more into sports, or girls, or band, or emergency medicine, or partying, or he might just not enjoy outdoors stuff and will drift away. There are as many reasons for boys to fade and become inactive as there are boys. Most of 'em don't have as much to do with a troop's program as social factors like who a boy's friends are and what his interests are.

 

Same goes for other things, eh? Sometimes when a boy isn't engaged, it's because we're not as engaging as we might be. Sometimes when a boy isn't engaged, it's because he chooses not to be. Farm Mechanics can be a blast, eh? And I hope all Americans understand and respect da hard work of farmers which supports our prosperity. Choosin' not to engage is a boy's choice. But even if it's not fun for the lad, I'm not sure we really want to say that when yeh don't like what your elected representatives have planned, the proper answer is to just not show. Is that da kind of citizenship we expect? Don't like the plan, run to Canada? Is that the kind of citizenship we want to reward?

 

Sometimes when a boy doesn't know something, it's because the teacher could have done a better job, and sometimes when a boy doesn't know something it's because he should have done his homework. And on and on, eh?

 

Only thing I would venture to say is that giving the lad an "A" and a diploma just for sittin' in his seat doesn't accomplish much beyond both the teacher and the boy avoiding responsibility.

 

Same with givin' a lad the highest award in Scoutin' just for being registered and not starting fights with other boys. It's an easy way for both the lad and the adults to avoid responsibility. And that doesn't do a lick for teachin' character.

 

Beavah

[highcountry]

Not constructing fake barriers at all. Until I remindeed him and his parents for 7 months to make an activity, he had not been on ANY troop activity in 20 months. At the same time I was reminding the scout and the parent they had not been at a troop meeting in 5 months and only about 20% attendance before that. I got the "ya know...baseball" excuse from Mom. I had to pull his POR a year and a half ago and told them he could not have one until he began to show up again. He came to one PLC last fall, showed up late, left early and paid no attention, he distracted others with side bar jokes while there. This PLC was during a campout he signed up for, then didn't show, he wanted to go biking with his buddies instead when they called at the last minute. He wanted an extra outing in January, he was going to set up a ski outing, got it going, then the real reason killed the event, his buddies (non scouts) he wanted to ski with cancelled so he dropped the ball and the event died for everyone. He has not made a PLC ever since. Myself and an ASM had to have a come to god discussion with this scout last Novemeber to try and get him doing much of anything. He had his SM review and BOR for life in December with 7 months left to make Eagle. I told him then to create a plan on how to get his MB's done, his eagle project etc, keep in mind BAseball was starting in late February. I ahve heard nothing since.

So who here is creating the road blocks, me, the other adult leaders or this scout himself ? I'll be damned as does our committee feel, we are going to do anything for this lad when he has done nothing for the troop or himself.

[FScouter]

OK, so write the kid off. Lets just not perpetuate the myth that active = registered or that anyone advocates giving away the highest award in Scouting to a kid that is merely signed up and doesnt start fights.

[OldGreyEagle]

How does one "earn" any award if one is not active?

[Lisabob]

Given what you wrote highcountry, it seems unlikely that this kid will get around to finishing the remaining requirements in time. After I read your previous post though, I was left with the distinct impression that if this kid somehow did suddenly pull it together, that you would do all you could to delay him from getting the signatures until too late anyway. If that isn't the case then I'm glad.

 

But so what? So this kid probably doesn't finish his eagle requirements. Why is this so frustrating to YOU? It isn't YOUR rank, it is HIS. You have had clear conversations with him letting him know what he needs to do if he plans to go for Eagle. Now sit back and let him either do it, or not do it! If he does, great. If he doesn't, well aging out at Life rank is nothing to sneeze at either. He'll have had six or seven YEARS of boy scouting experience - not an inconsequential amount of time in the life of a boy - and one hopes that he'll carry many good memories of scouting and the lessons he learned right on into adulthood.

 

 

[Eamonn]

Phone Rings.

"Hello, this is Eamonn the District Commissioner, I've been going over the charters and see that three boys have been dropped, we are asking everyone who has dropped a Scout what happened?"

 

Mr Scoutmaster

"Hi Eamonn, hows it going? Yes we drop three. Mark and his family moved out of the area, Tim said that he just didn't have time, what with his ballet and dance classes and I hadn't seen John for ages, money is tight and we can't afford to keep kids who aren't active on the charter. It's a shame I thought he was going to go all the way. He hasn't been the same kid since he bought his car and got that new girl friend."

 

Parents in our area do pay the membership fee for the first year, after that units pay.

Most units don't pay the rechartering fee and the insurance for Scouts that they haven't seen in a while.

Once the Scout isn't a member, I think he is no longer active.

Could it be that we might be looking at this the wrong way around?

Active Equals Registered?

Not registered equals no longer active?

Eamonn.

[Beavah]

Yah, highcountry, I'm with Eamonn. The answer to your particular case is just to drop the lad from the roster. Honestly, I just don't understand the units that keep inactive scouts on the rolls. If the boy shows up to go on the one ski outing because he likes a free vacation with no commitment, yeh politely say "sorry, Joe, but you were well below our attendance expectation so we dropped you from the roster. But if you are ready to come back and make a real commitment to scouting, I can schedule a Scoutmaster's conference the week after the ski trip and we can talk about that."

 

Still, that's a bit of a heavy hammer for a lot of cases, eh? Surely we can expect, as FScouter says, our adult leaders to recognize what "active" really means in terms of giving a boy an award and showing character. "Obligating himself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfilling a member's obligation to the unit..."

 

Unfortunately, "active=registered (as long as you're not thrown out for behavioral reasons)" is exactly what the guidance is currently from da program office in Irving. I wish it weren't so, but that's what it says, that's what's bein' taught, and that's the way it's being implemented. As quite a few people here have reported, eh? While a fair number of units are resisting that "guidance", we've got to be honest about what da guidance is. And what the rules are.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

How does a scout who is not active earn any ranks?

[evmori]

Lets just not perpetuate the myth that active = registered

 

No myth! Fact!

 

How can a kid who isn't active earn ranks? He does all the required work at home & with others then shows up to get his book signed. Badda bing!

[OldGreyEagle]

Of course Ed you are right,

 

BTW, who signs the book, a Scoutmaster designee or the BSA?