The Active Equals Registered Thing

[Beavah]

Yah, wanted to move this over to a new thread just so it didn't hijack the other one, eh? And because it's a frightfully boring re-hash of old stuff we find in other threads.

 

FScouter said:

 

Seeing as how all the versions are the same, it doesn't make any difference. The differences come from different individuals reading the same thing and choosing to interpret it to support their own purposes.

 

If a boy is not participating in the troop program, a rule written by the adults is not going to make him active. BSA makes it clear that it is the job of the Scoutmaster to engage the boys and create a program such that they will actively participate. Writing a "you must attend or else" rule only shows that the SM has failed.

 

Instead, he should be conferencing with those boys whose participation is waning and determine ways to increase it.

 

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I think FScouter is combinin' two things here that are really very different.

 

Sometimes boys are fading out of a troop, eh? Can happen for all kinds of reasons, good and bad. In those cases, of course a Patrol Leader or scouter is goin' to reach out and encourage. But in those cases, the lads aren't actively pushing for advancement to Star or Life, eh? They're just not comin'. F is right, no rule is goin' to make 'em come.

 

For the Star or Life requirements, a boy is expected to be active in his patrol and troop for a period of time, and serve in a position of responsibility for a period of time. In applying for an award, he's asking to be recognized for those real contributions to his peers. So they should be real contributions, eh? This case is not the same thing as a boy who is just fadin' out of the program who needs some outreach and attention. Sometimes, it's a lad (or parent) trying to get an award while doin' the least he can.

 

So in da second case, the issue is not how to help a boy be active, it's whether to give a boy an award. Or, in the case of settin' expectations to help a lad or a family understand their responsibility, it's usin' advancement to teach responsibility.

 

Encouragin' a boy to come, and spelling out the expectations for an award are different things.

 

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We have three different versions from da BSA on how to interpret "active". The one we all agreed to is the one in the Rules & Regulations:

 

Rules & Regulations

An active youth member is one who, with the approval of a

parent or guardian if necessary, becomes a member of a unit; obligates

himself or herself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfills a member's

obligation to the unit; subscribes to the Scout Oath or the code of his

or her respective program; and participates in an appropriate program

based on a member's age

 

The youth leader handbooks say things like the PL must live up to clear expectations, like:

 

Patrol Leader's Handbook

While you are a patrol leader, your troop and patrol are going to count on you to live up to some clear expectations. They will look to you to:

*Represent the patrol at all patrol leaders council meetings.

*Play a key role in planning, leading, and evaluating patrol meetings and activities.

*Help the patrol prepare to participate in all troop activities.

*Attend junior leader training.

*Set a good example by having a positive attitude, wearing the scout uniform, showing patrol spirit, and expecting the best from yourself and others.

*Devote the time necessary to be an effective leader.

etc.

 

Then we have the current program guidance which someone's DE quoted to them as "active means registered":

 

National Advancement Committee / Staff Guidance

A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

 

So in the Rules & Regs and in the youth leader handbooks, we see a whole list of things where the scout has duties and obligations, eh?

 

But in the program guidance, the scout only has two duties: Be registered, and not be expelled for disciplinary reasons. #3 as FScouter points out isn't a duty of the boy, it's a duty of the adult leaders.

 

That difference - a boy having obligations and a boy not having obligations - it's important. And it's not just a matter of personal readin'.

 

To claim that the third piece of literature says the same thing as the former two I personally feel is poppycock. It is a classic case of "subtracting from the requirements." Sadly, the third piece of literature is what council advancement committees are bein' taught at present, and how the Irving staff is handlin' appeals which reach them.

 

We might agree with da new interpretation, eh? That's fine. But we should be honest that it's a new interpretation which really does conflict with other documents. I personally in workin' with units choose not to fight this fight, eh? If a unit is settin' expectations for boys in line with the Rules & Regulations instead of da advancement guidance, I support 'em in their efforts to teach character. Same with units that go the other way.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[acco40]

When I was the Scoutmaster, I had an "Advancement Expectations" file that I kept as my "legal defense" from prosecution by parents. It read in part:

 

PARTICIPATION

Participation is essential to advancement and the requirements are clearly defined in the Boy Scout Handbook for the ranks of Tenderfoot through First Class Scout. Participation requirements for Star, Life, and Eagle are listed, but not as specifically defined. The requirements for these ranks are as follows:

 

Tenderfoot: Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch on a ground bed you have prepared.

Second Class: Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight.

First Class: Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight.

Star: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 4 months as a First Class Scout.

Life: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Star Scout.

Eagle: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Life Scout.

For the ranks of Star, Life, and Eagle a requirement of be active exists. What does be active mean? It goes beyond just being registered. It means that you are an active, contributing member of your Patrol and Troop. This requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook, pg 169 as TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. However, it does not state specific attendance levels.

Maybe you are very active in the Order of the Arrow, attending all functions and even serving in a leadership capacity. Your unit leader may not accept that as meeting the participation requirement. Likewise, you may be serving on camp staff all summer and busy during the fall with the start of school, sports, and/or a job. But, if you are not being a participating member, leader and example in your patrol and troop, your unit leader may not accept your performance for this requirement.

So what do you do if life has you running a hundred miles an hour? Talk to your Scoutmaster. To avoid disappointment, find out what he sees as acceptable performance before you start working on these ranks. If necessary, use those leadership skills you're developing to negotiate an acceptable arrangement. You'll be glad you did!

Generally, to advance, you must participate as follows for the designated 4 or 6 month period:

Weekly Meetings: you must participate in more than half of the weekly troop meetings.

Campouts: you must participate in more than half of the campouts/outings.

Other Troop Activities (parades, fundraisers, service projects, PLC meetings, etc.): you must participate in at least half of these activities.

Again, if you cannot meet these participation requirements, for your own benefit, discuss your situation with the Scoutmaster before, not after the fact.

 

[Get Outdoors]

Nicely done Beaveh, thanks. I will certainly keep the "duties and obligations" thing in my back pocket. Where would I find the "rules and regulations" you referance below?

 

Why is it that the folks in TX are so wishy-washy about this, afraid to take a real position on this? Is it, if they have a policy they will have less kids in scouting? Less Eagle scouts? Is it all about the numbers to them? Kinda makes ya wonder.

 

If I, the SM doesn't sign an eagle application because the boy hasn't camped in a year and only attended a handful of meetings, the boy will appeal and concile will over-ride me anyway.

[Get Outdoors]

acco40,

So what happens if the scout doesn't participate in 50% of the activities?

[Get Outdoors]

sorry, acco40, I see you don't allow them to advance. Per my DE, you don't have the power to do so. They consider that "adding requirments"

 

Not trying to debate you, I personally agree that is what is should be but I don't write the BSA rules.

[evmori]

Beavah makes a great point! Who is responsible?

 

The adult leadership and the Scout are equally responsible.

 

The adult leadership is responsible for supplying all that is necessary for the Scouts to learn & advance. They are also responsible for holding the Scouts accountable for their part of the program.

 

The Scout is responsible for taking advantage of the opportunities the adult leadership presents. The Scout is responsible for their advancement. They are also responsible for holding the adult leadership accountable for their part of the program.

 

 

[Beavah]

Where would I find the "rules and regulations" you referance below?

 

Hee hee... well, you agreed to 'em when you signed your adult leader application.

 

You *should* be able to request a copy from your council office. I think they're still a bin item, and they'll definitely have copies around they can xerox. Some offices get all cagey and weird about givin' these out, though, so be prepared to explain your interest.

 

The part yeh want is Article VII, Section 1.

 

B

 

[John-in-KC]

The part B quoted is sadly not in ACP&P #33088

 

Article IX (the DRP) is

 

Article X, Section I is

 

A small part of Article XI is.

[AlFansome]

 

...and then the scouting.org website says at http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx:

 

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?

Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

 

1.He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

2.He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

3.He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position.

 

 

Now, if that is indeed the BSA position, then could Troop leaders use the position of responsiblity requirement to ensure that a Scout is "active", if they feel that actually being engaged with the troop is important? That is, if a scout is elected/appointed to a position for a 4 or 6 month term, and then isn't doing his job well (or at all), wouldn't that be the point to remove him from the position, thereby stalling advancement until he is indeed "active" for at least a 4 or 6 month period per rank?

 

Maybe this is a question for another thread...

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Next time someone quotes that FAQ I'm going to puke. I put very little stock in it.

 

Our council advancement committee tried that route about a year ago and almost had their giblets handed to them. They've backed off and the official word now is that hard-and-fast attendance percentages aren't allowed, but judiciously applied attendance guidelines are okay, but don't count on a favorable ruling from national on appeal. In other words, a 50% attendance rule is okay as long as you don't really enforce it and no one questions it.

 

Actually, I'm okay with that. With our youth-led attendance records I'm not going to court and swear that your 49.647% attendance average is accurate. So I'll give a kid the benefit of the doubt if it's close. The main thing I like is that it gives me a little leverage in dealing with attendance issues.

[scoutldr]

What good is having "rules and regs" if the program materials contradict them and they're not enforced. Here we go again. Just say what you mean, and crosswalk all materials so they say the same thing. How hard is that?

 

Maybe we should all just agree not to sign anything saying we "agree", unless we're provided (or offered) a copy (or a hyperlink) of what we're agreein' to. Isn't that basic legal common sense?

[John-in-KC]

Twocubdad:

 

I suggest you read a 2007 or later ACP&P. The words from the FAQ are in the policy document.

 

That's the real world program guidance your DAC lives with now, whether we like it or not

[evmori]

OK. So if a Scout is registered, hasn't been dismissed for being bad, e-mails weekly with the SM he is active. The Scout doesn't have to show up for anything to advance? Is that what you are stating, John?

[Twocubdad]

In the face of mutiple, contradictory standards, I get to pick the one I like. I go with the one from the Rules and Regulations. When national clarifies the documents, I'll be happy to comply.

[Eagle732]

I like the 50% attendance in meetings, trips and other activities policy that acco40 provided and if I thought I could get away with it I'd institute it immediately! But if denying Eagle to a Scout who has not attended a camping trip in over a year and only a handful of meetings is only going to result in a lost appeal then what's the sense in that?

The 2008 Advancement Guide requires "active tenure" with out a definition. What does "active tenure" mean?