Poison Ivy

[Eagle732]

Tenderfoot requirement #11 states "Identify local poisonous plants; tell how to treat for exposure to them." How does a Scout ID local poisonous plants such as poison ivy during the winter when there is none? I guess he could look at pictures in the book but is that the same as finding the real thing? Is it fair to make them wait 4 months until the poison ivy starts growing? Any suggestions?

[scoutldr]

Poison ivy doesn't go away in the winter. The hairy vines attached to the side of the tree are still there...and poisonous, I think (I've never tested that theory).

[CalicoPenn]

Scoutldr makes a good point about poison ivy vines still being around in the winter - but then again, Virginia creeper vines are still around in the winter and it's difficult to tell them apart if you're not really up on vines in winter.

 

My advice is to read the requirement for what it is and not follow the words our brains try to add to them because it (the brain) thinks it's smarter than the words. (There have been studies that show people are able to determine what many words are by just the first and last letters, whether the intervening letters are missing or scrambled - and that we have an amazing capacity to add missing words to sentences without any effort).

 

The requirement states "Identify local poisonous plants". For many people, our brains try to add the qualifier "in the field" because that just makes sense. Yet "in the field" doesn't exist in the requirement anywhere. So when we get rid of the non-existent sentence, it opens up other possibilities. The obvious possibility is "yes, a Scout can identify a local poisonous plant by photo". There is nothing in the requirement that says a Scout can't be handed a small pack of photos he hasn't seen before and asked to pull out and identify the photos showing local poisonous plants in order to pass the requirement. I might have at least 5 but no more than 10 or so pictures of common woodland plants for my area - leaves only - with one being poison ivy, one being Virginia creeper (often misidentified as poison ivy), one being trillium (a flower with three leaves), and a few others and ask the Scout to identify any posionous plants in the pictures. Or maybe I have one picture of a group of different plants and ask him to identify any poisonous plants in the picture. This method can be done any time of the year.

 

The Scout still needs to learn the plants - but then he needs to show that he's learned it.

 

Calico

[packsaddle]

There are also many, many other plants that are poisonous that can be identified during the winter. For example, Poinsettias, mistletoe, yellow jessamine, oleander, etc. Here's a link to a decent list of things you might encounter in Maryland:http://gardening.yardener.com/YardenersPlantProblemSolver/AvoidingPoisonousPlants/PoisonTreesShrubsandVines

 

The obvious things like poison ivy are irritants but yellow jessamine, for example, is extremely toxic. Not only can ingestion of a small portion of any part of the plant produce death, but merely pulling the vines with bare hands (while clearing brush, for example) can absorb enough through the skin to produce serious illness.

A lot of these can be identified during winter.

 

Edited part: It just occurred to me that you could also include many foods as well. Every green part of the plant for potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, anything Solanaceous, is poisonous - except for the fruit (which is the part we eat for peppers and tomatoes, potatoes are underground stems). The leaves of rhubarb are poisonous (but the petioles are really tasty). There are lots of really interesting things out there and it's especially fun, for some reason, if it can kill a person. Go figure.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Eagle732]

I looked at the link to poisonous plants and yes there are many in our region that could be identified during the winter. However reviewing page #59 in the handbook shows IMO that the poison ivy, oak and sumac plants are the focus of the requirement. Also the requirement refers to page #318 for first aid however that page refers you back to page #59! Page #318 does have actual pictures of the poisonous plants. Having pictures on hand might be a way to complete the requirement but there is nothing like pointing out the plants during a hike.

[Lisabob]

Here's another way to look at this. Nothing says you can't do the requirement in winter along the lines that Calico describes. However, that should NOT be the last time the scout is asked about these plants. Just because they got the sign-off doesn't mean they're done learning, or done using that knowledge. Everyone - scouts and adults alike - would benefit from identifying these plants whenever they are out and about. For myself, I know do a quick visual refresher every spring when I start to help with clearing brush at my parents' farm.

[packsaddle]

Keep in mind that while Maryland does have the three mentioned, poison sumac doesn't really occur in the Western states. Alaska and Hawaii don't have any of them. I would not therefore conclude that those boys are out of luck for the identifications, nor are they free of concerns over poisonous plants. I would not therefore exclude plants that are really, really poisonous just because they weren't mentioned in the very brief paragraphs of the handbook.

As to the intent, I agree that some field identifications are very desireable. When we take hikes and go on outings I constantly drill them on IDs to reinforce their ability to identify these things even when the plants don't look exactly like the pictures...AND to identify the plants that ARE NOT poisonous but DO look like the pictures. Of course none of that is mentioned in the handbook. It just makes good sense. I hope BSA isn't completely immune to that, although I wonder at times.

[Narraticong]

I'm with Packsaddle on this one. On hikes I am usually one of the last ones in line because I am constantly looking around for signs of nature. Boys find it really cool and interesting when I start munching on rose hips, raspberries, strawberries. Or stop to try to identify scat or tracks. Part of my love for the outdoors came from my own Scoutmaster who taught me that hiking is an experience, not a race.

 

 

[ljnrsu]

Poison Ivy and Sumac does not die in winter and their vines, stems and branches are still toxic. In Fall-Winter Poison Ivy leaves turn various shades of yellow, orange or red. They are reddish in the spring, before turning green in summer. The stems and vines can also have a reddish color Fall-early Spring. Poison Sumac does lose its leaves in fall but the trunk and branches can be identified by the bark.

I have had to learn what they look like year around as I am extremely allergic to both plants.

[nrp1488]

I've worked outdoors all my life (mostly as a park ranger) and I've had many cases of poison ivy, some minor and some severe. Although I recognize it, sometimes it can't be avoided. I've never seen a "picture" of poison ivy that ever really looked like the real thing. I encourage my scouts to identify it "in the field" so they KNOW what it looks like. It can easily be done on a hike or camping trip so there is no real hardship there. And yes, it is still around in the winter and yes, you can still get the rash any time of year.

[Venividi]

What is wrong with waiting until the leaves start to emerge on the poison ivy / oak plants? I dont know when they emerge in Maryland, but in Northern Illinois they start appearing in early May - about another 2 months. I think waiting until a tenderfoot can actually identify the plant in the field provides better skill development than identifying it in a picture. Much more useful to actually be able to identify it growing along the paths and playgrounds they use than to identify the 3 leaves in a picture. I think that rushing to sign off on requirements before a scout masters a skill does him a disservice.

[Eagle732]

Nothing wrong with waiting, I was just looking for an alternative to help the Scout keep moving along the advancement trail without making him wait 4 months for the poison ivy to start growing again. Around here it drops it's leaves in November/December and starts to grow again in April.

[Beavah]

Yet "in the field" doesn't exist in the requirement anywhere. So when we get rid of the non-existent sentence, it opens up other possibilities. The obvious possibility is "yes, a Scout can identify a local poisonous plant by photo".

 

Yah, well that's a novel interpretation.

 

I reckon it doesn't say "in the field" on dozens of other requirements that are just as obviously in the field requirements. I suppose lads can sleep in a tent they've pitched on a "campout" in mom's basement for that requirement, eh?

 

I'm with npr1488. There's a big difference between a photo and the live plant. It's very easy to memorize the photo and still not be able to recognize the live plant when yeh step in it.

 

And what are the Rules & Regulations we all promised to uphold? Boy Scout badges are awarded only for proficiency in outdoor skills, not for readin' about outdoor skills in a book.

 

No subtractin' from the requirements. A lad who goes camping needs to be able to recognize and avoid and treat for exposure to the poisonous plants he's goin' to encounter in the field. Gettin' a badge a few months later won't hurt a lad. Gettin' a nasty case of poison plantlife could land a boy in the hospital.

 

Do what's right, not what's expedient. If it's winter, teach the boys to recognize the vine. Maybe that way come summer they won't accidentally throw one into da campfire.

 

Beavah