EBOR - Appeal Loophole?

[gcnphkr]

From the ACP&P, pp, 28-29"

 

Scouts who have completed all requirements for a rank prior to their 18th birthday should submit their application and be reviewed and recognized within three months after that date. Boards of review conducted between three and six months after the candidates 18th birthday must be pre-approved by the local council. A statement by an adult explaining the reason for the delay must be attached to the Eagle Scout Rank Application when it is submitted to the Eagle Scout Service. If an Eagle Scout board of review will be held after the six months following the candidates 18th birthday, the Eagle Scout must petition the National Boy Scout Committee for an extension of time to hold the board of review. The petition must be processed through the local council, detailing the extenuating circumstances that prevented the board of review from being held within the six-month period following the candidates 18th birthday, and be accompanied with a copy of the Eagle Scout Rank Application.

No mention of the extended time. Based on that, if they do not have the BOR within the 6 months they would need to petition National for an extension for the BOR. If this were me, I would be confirming this at the time I made my first request. Note there are two different extensions here, one to extend the age requirement in order to complete the requirements for rank and another to extend the deadline for the BOR.

[John-in-KC]

There are procedures to extend the time to be a youth program member and earn rank in the Boy Scouting program of BSA. I don't have ACP&P with me, but I will post those tonight.

 

- They apply to:

-- Special needs Scouts, who have learning/emotional disability. These can be permanent in nature, if the youths mental capability will never bring him to learning level of an adult or emotional maturity of an adult.

-- Extensions of time for special and unique circumstances.

 

These procedures are wholly different from those to obtain an extension of time for the Eagle BOR, or for an appeal that extends beyond the youth members' 18th birthday.

 

More later.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[ScoutNut]

>>> "The ACP&P describe extensions as if the purpose is for completing the board of review. However, it does not describe the purpose as to complete requirements." >>>

 

Now see, this sort of round-about blather, that you KNOW to be incorrect, is what causes me to smell a troll.

 

On your other long winded dance of a thread, I specifically mentioned time extensions for finishing requirements.

 

Since you are in the process of re-writing the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures for National and your Council (unasked by either), and you seem to have it memorized, I would think you would know about the section on time extensions (labeled, curiously enough, Time Extensions) on page 25.

 

The entire section is -

 

"If a Scout or a Venturer foresees that he will be unable to complete the requirements for the Eagle rank prior to his 18th birthday, he may file a petition in writing with the National Boy Scout Committee through the local council for special permission to continue to work toward the award after reaching age 18. The petition also may be filed by the unit leader or unit committee. The petition must show good and sufficient evidence and detail the extenuating circumstances that prevented the Scout from completing the requirements prior to his 18th birthday."

 

"Extenuating circumstances are defined as conditions or situations that are totally beyond the control of the Scout or Venturer. If circumstances should also prevent a Scout or a Venturer from requesting the extension before he is 18, it is still permissible to ask for the extension, detailing the extenuating circumstances that prevented him from completing the requirements and from requesting the extension before age 18."

 

Now would you like to share what EXACTLY you are doing, and getting to, or do you insist on continuing this game?

 

[Fugitive]

OK: John that helped and I think ScoutNut posted what you would be looking for tonight. I overlooked the section that ScoutNut posted, but this reinforces the point that when the ACP&P refers to extensions and other topics they do not consolidate everything in one spot or refer to the other locations necessary for a complete understanding. I am learning.

 

Hey Guys, would you please let me know in a PM what a "Troll" is, I want to know if it fits. Please do not post in public I want to keep positive and on point the other does not help anyone.

 

What I am is a Unit Committee Chair who wants to do things wright and as you can tell I'm on a steep learning curve. The positive comments that I have received are helping! In a week or two I might not sound this stupid.

 

Thanks,

Fugitive

[John-in-KC]

If you want to play in Advancement, being a unit serving Scouter is the wrong position for you. At the unit level, you follow the procedures promulgated by the National Council as amplified by your Council and/or District Advancement Committee.

 

If you want to be an agent for change, you work to become a COR, and thus have a seat at the table on the District Committee, or you work to become a working member of your District Advancement Committee, and start paying your dues.

 

BTW, remember what Lisa said: Play nice.

[Fugitive]

John,

 

As I stated I did what you all suggested and started from step 1, first calling our District Advancement Chair and our Brand new Commissioner. I personally met with the District Chair and am still waiting for my second attempt to reach the Commissioner to be returned, from my previous experience I will be waiting a long time. Our District member is working on an Eagle Policy for our Council and welcomes my help. I am preparing to make a presentation to a fair number of our Council and District Advancement Committee Members with the idea that they will work with me to advance improvements to National Committee. Once we accomplish that we can finalize the Council policy. In away we were all involved in what could be described as a "Stress Test" of the Eagle Board of Review process and can use what we learned to benefit us all. You can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Positive input is welcome. I still don't know what a Troll is, send me a PM so I know if I should be insulted or happy.

 

I listened, I learned and I did what you said. I really would like to focus on Advancement Policy. Positive input will keep me moving in the right direction.

 

Thanks,

Fugitive

[Fugitive]

The Scout gets a no vote, gets a list of actions needed to meet the requirements over a period of time and comes before another board at the same level for another vote. I get it!

 

Next a Scout turns 18, gets a 6 month extension turns everything in on the last day and has 3 months to complete a EBOR, or does he now need another extension from National, since the first 6 month extension has passed? I have never seen an extension, what do they say?

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks,

Fugitive

 

(This message has been edited by Fugitive)

[OldGreyEagle]

I think you got it wrong

 

If the scout gets a no vote, he may accept the decision and then the Board tells him what he must do and in what framework it must be done. A follow-up Board of Review is schdeuled and the whole process followed as described in the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures publication

 

If the scout gets a no vote he may not accept the decision and appeal the decision, in which case the process for appeal is followed. This is found in the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures Publication. There is not another Board of Review, the decision of the Board of Review is either upheld, no rank, or the decision is reversed, the rank is granted.

 

If the scout gets an extension, and these are difficult to get then the time clock startes with 3 and 6 month dealines based on the extension.

 

Most of this is explained in the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures publication. It should be in your Scout Office. Perhaps before someone in your Council writes up everything, this publication should be studied, anything that is written has to agree with what is in it

[Fugitive]

OldGreyEagle,

 

Wisdom came with the OldGrey part. Try this: WiseOldGreyEagle, maybe that is too long!

 

You are right, at that point I was only addressing that side of the options. Blogging in short hand. By the way I have a 2008 version of the book.

 

But I don't see what to do when a Scout turns 18, gets a 6 month extension to complete the requirements, turns everything in on the last day. Does he now need another National extension to receive a board of review? Or is the last day of the extension just like the last day that he is 17 and he now has 3 months to complete a EBOR. I have never seen a National extension letter, what do they say?

 

Thanks,

Fugitive(This message has been edited by Fugitive)

[John-in-KC]

Sweet mercy. The scenario you just described is so far on the outlier it's not funny. I'd guess we're talking about 5th standard deviation beyond the mean.

 

We don't ask Scouters to set their brains nor their hearts aside when they step up to a position such as District or Council Advancement Committee.

 

Page 25 of ACP&P applies when the youth member sees he will not complete requirements by his 18th birthday. Remember that the requirements for Eagle run up TO but do not include the EBOR. This request is going to go to National, and the stipulations plainly in the book stack the odds against the youth member.

 

Page 29 covers the matter of a Scout who gets to the edge of his next rank on his 18th birthday. While this can be used for any rank, the common usage is for Scouts moving to Eagle.

 

Finally, Page 40 covers the circumstances and requirements when a Scout has a physical, educational, or emotional disability and will be a youth member for an extended period (up to lifelong) beyond his 18th birthday.

 

BTW, none of these apply to an appeal. If a Scout is not advanced to Eagle by an EBOR, the Board must tell him the reasons. Their documentation of how he gets from here--->there, when he's already over 18, by COMMON SENSE dictate giving him the appeal information.

 

What part of this do you not understand? For bureaucratic program language, this stuff is as simple to KISS as I've seen in a long time.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Fugitive]

John,

 

You are right on each of the policy issues you point out. However, you did not contribute anything that helps me answer the last question that I posted. Everything that the bloggers have pointed out has helped and as a result I have noted several small suggestions that I just ran by our District Advancment rep. She agreed, we are making progress. The positive aspects of you comments are good, I just wish you would use your positive side of you brain all of the time.

 

Please help me with the last post. Ambiguity creats loopholes that will be exploited by attorney types and technocrats. What is a Troll?

 

Thanks,

Fugitive(This message has been edited by Fugitive)

[OldGreyEagle]

John-in-KC is right, what you describe should hardly ever ever ever happen, but you want to be prepared. OK, you can be

 

In the policy you are writing, you can address what to do when a scout is granted an extension. To tell you the truth, I have never seen an extension letter so I don't know what they look like either.

 

Follow the routine process, if the scout has 6 months extension, then he has six months, just like he has til 18 (unless he gets an extension, natch). If he turns in his papers on the last day of six months and then he has 3 months to get the Board of Review, beyond 3 months, I don't know, I would suggest that anytime an extension is granted by National, the specifics of when the Bord of Review must be done is also addressed. I don't think it will cause a hardship once every 5-7 years or more.

[Lisabob]

Troll: "someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

(from wikipedia)

 

The fact that you are persisting in asking for minutia about stuff that rarely happens and then adding twists to it, seemingly just to make the scenario even more bizarre, and that you seem to persist in willfully obfuscating policy that most people find to be quite clear, is probably what has prompted a couple of folks to suggest you might be a troll.

 

 

 

[Fugitive]

Wow! I'm not sure I wanted to know that. My questions are relavant to real life cenarios sorry to say. I wish I could share all of the details but this format not the right place. If we were'nt hiding our identities behind the web it would be easier to have an open discussion. In fact the Trolls would not have access to the discussion to stir things up by digging out dirt. I swep the dirt out of my tent after the last thread. I don't like the way that went. I am not a skilled blogger. I am willing to learn.

 

Thanks Lisabob glad to see you back.

 

I'm done with this thread. I appreciate the positive comments, time and contributions of those with constructive comments.

 

Thanks,

Fugitive

[OldGreyEagle]

perhaps we could all take a breath. Mr Fugitive, I have to tell you that in the past we have had people come on the Forum, ask some involved questions and then when the answers start comming the original poster throws out some curve balls and answers follows and then the person posts they were doing a sociology paper or psych paper and we were an experiement and we proved all Boy Scout leaders are idiots, or loons or something of a combination.

 

Now, I am not saying that is the case here, only that having a few brushes with people who like to stir the pot for the stirring effect sometimes we find it hard to beleive some stories that are presented here. I have answered you the best I can in the forum and in PM's ,I answer because I take you at your word you say who you are, the problem is we have been misrepresented to before. SO, ask away, you will get answers, and you will get comments as many beleive "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" For some you could be number 10.