Scout Oath and Law for advancement

[asm 411]

Uniforms and books ... required ... not required.

 

I suppose that a car without tires and a steering wheel is still a car. It just is not as functional as one with those things.

 

Keep in mind that even though uniform is not required it is one of the methods of Scouting.

 

Also keep in mind that the handbook, though perhaps not required, is really the best way for a Scout to track his own advancement and investigate what the requirements mean on his own. Since advancement is also a method of Scout it would be a serious flaw in thinking by a Scouter not see that the Handbook is as close to a required tool as Scout has. In other words it would be foolish not to do everything in our power as Scouters to make encourage the use of the Handbook as if it were required.

 

When a Scout joins our troop he is given a handbook. It is included in the cost of registration. We explain that it is important to his advancement because it is where he needs to keep get the things he completed signed off. When everything for a rank is signed off he advances. Not required? How does a Scout communicate to the Scoutmaster and the advancement chair what he has done the requirements if not with the handbook. How does the Scout know when he is ready for a Scoutmaster Conference if he is not keeping track somewhere? If a Scout loses a handbook the advancement chair will provide the information from Troopmaster for the Scout if necessary. The Scout is then told to get a new handbook. If there were an issue with a Scout not being able to afford an $8 handbook I would buy one for the Scout myself if our Scoutmaster did not beat me to it. Anything that has been lost between the last time the Advancement Chair updated the records from the book can be recaptured from whoever signed off his book just by the Scout asking for the signature again. We believe in trust but verify.

 

Uniforming is always a difficult task. The Scouters encourage the PLC to wear their uniforms and to encourage their patrols do the same. We maintain a troop uniform closet (actually it is a large bin) for those who may have difficulties purchasing uniforms themselves. Depending on our SPL we are either well uniformed or not. Our Committee requires more proper uniforming by rank. A Scout going for a BOR for Tenderfoot would be reminded that he should wear his neckerchief to all BORs in the future. I am not sure what their exact criteria is but I have seen several First Class and Star Scouts asking to borrow neckerchiefs. Would they fail a Scout for not wearing his uniform. I don't know it has never come up as far as I know. It is explained the wearing the complete uniform is a sign of respect to the adults working with him in the case of BORs, Scoutmaster Conferences and Merit Badge counciling. The troop neckerchief is also included in the sign up cost so every Scout gets one.

 

That is what our troop does and it seems to work for us. Your mileage may vary.

[OldGreyEagle]

"The strictly by-the-book, "no adding, no retesting" folks would argue that once a lad is signed off for the Tenderfoot requirement, he is never required to recite the Oath and Law again from memory, or describe what it means."

 

Gee Beavah, I always thought of myself as a member of the "strictly by-the-book, "no adding, no retesting" folks" list, but I would never argue that once a lad is signed off for the Tenderfoot requirements he never has to recite the Oath and Law again or talk about what it means, or for that matter, tie another square knot. So does this mean I am not a strictly by-the-book, "no adding, no retesting" folk?

 

[evmori]

Personally,

 

When I was a committeeman or Chairman, I liked to ask the Scout coming in for Boards of Review to lead us in the Scout Oath and Law. I used it as a touchstone for all of us in the room, adults and young man alike.

 

Depending on the age of the Scout, I like to ask questions about how he interprets various parts of the Oath and Law, Motto and Slogan ... working to the Character Aim of Scouting.

 

Use to do the same thing when I sat on EBOR's & when I was the advancement chair of our Troop. There is nothing wrong with asking the Scout to lead the board in the Pledge, Oath & Law. But requiring it and requiring the Scout wear his uniform & bring his handbook are adding to the requirements. And don't forget to have that Scout leave that pint of blood before he requests that BOR!

[Hal_Crawford]

"A board can expect a Scout to be neat in appearance and properly uniformed."

 

From Board of Review training (http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/board%20of%20review%20training.aspx)

 

Also:

"But be aware that a Scout who is poorly prepared for the board, one who clearly has not achieved what his book says that he has, is a product, as much of his own merits as of the merits of those who have brought him the board, to those who have signed off his accomplishments without actually having them properly achieved."

 

His what? His book. Seems BSA expects a scout to wear a uniform and bring his book to a BOR. Maybe not required but expected. My dad, a career army officer would say that expected and required are the same thing.

 

I don't see this as adding requirements.

Hal

[evmori]

Most of the time Scouts will show up for BOR's in uniform. And that's great! But requiring it is adding to the requirements. What if the Scout never owned a uniform or lost the handbook he was given at crossover & never bought another one? And what if this same Scout came to his BOR attired neatly, without a handbook & well prepared. Would you tell him "Sorry Billy, no BOR for you without a uniform AND handbook."? If you would, then shame on you.

[Eagledad]

I'm trying to fugure out how a Scout could get a BOR without his book in our troop since the board uses the book to as some of the question about his experience. If he doesn't bring the book, how does the BOR sign off in the book? Also, if the idea of the BOR is to verify that the scout has completed everything, how do they do they do that without a book? Oh I guess some adult could have keep track on the side, but how do we know that imformation is correct. Required or not, seems like you got to have a book to do the BOR correctly.

 

Barry

[Cubmaster Mike]

Wow, Ive heard some great points to take into the ULM.

There IS a checklist for the boys to use for each rank. And guess what, it is in the back of the handbook!

Why change what already exists? Lets just use it.

It is a good practice to have Scouts repeat the Scout Oath & Law often enough during troop meetings and other activities so that the Scouts can't help but keep them in memory.

We start each meeting with the Pledge, Oath and Law, so they should have it down.

Good point- you learn the Pledge of Allegiance through sheer repetition. I would expect not saying the Pledge for several years would rust up some memories.

At some point we have to start treating boys like men, I think requiring the scout to keep his records and book up to date is a good start.

Ah, the manly man factor

That approach to da methods reflects an organizational vision of providin' an activity for boys to get 'em out of the house and make the parents feel good.

And of course the guilt factor.

The handbook, though perhaps not required, is really the best way for a Scout to track his own advancement and investigate what the requirements mean on his own.

I like the responsibility angle.

"But be aware that a Scout who is poorly prepared for the board, one who clearly has not achieved what his book says that he has, is a product, as much of his own merits as of the merits of those who have brought him the board, to those who have signed off his accomplishments without actually having them properly achieved." he doesn't bring the book, how does the BOR sign off in the book?

Interesting- Ill look over that training. Had not seen it before.

Regarding books as part of the uniform. Actually that is exactly what we tell the first years. Seems to have fallen off with the older boys.

Fortunately the shirt and pant part of uniforming is not a problem. We tell them it is required and they do it without question. Those that would question it we point out that while a collared shirt and tie are not required for a job interview, you stand a much better chance of getting a job with themthan without. I think author Dave Ramsey put it well on the subject of dressing for success and conforming to norms when interviewing:

Is it Fair? Probably not. Is it how The Real World works? Yes.

Thank you for good input so far. (This message has been edited by Cubmaster Mike)

[Beavah]

Gee Beavah, I always thought of myself as a member of the "strictly by-the-book, "no adding, no retesting" folks" list, but I would never argue that once a lad is signed off for the Tenderfoot requirements he never has to recite the Oath and Law again or talk about what it means, or for that matter, tie another square knot. So does this mean I am not a strictly by-the-book, "no adding, no retesting" folk?

 

Yah, OGE, I've gotta tear a corner off your By-The-Book Chit. Leastways, if you're talkin' about advancement. If you're expectin' a lad to know the Oath and Law at a BOR or conference for advancement, yeh aren't bein' strictly by-the-book. As evmori seems to repeatedly describe!

 

And this thread is about "for advancement", eh?

 

Now, if you're not talkin' advancement, as I mentioned in my postscript, there's nuthin' that prevents a troop from workin' their goals usin' other methods. Yeh might not allow a boy to go on a high adventure or other campout unless he knows the Oath and Law or wears his uniform. Or yeh might make up a special award for lads who know the Oath and Law or wear their uniform or whatever, like a pizza party. Or yeh might simply be more positive as an adult toward boys who know the Oath and Law, leveragin' adult relationships.

 

In all those cases, what you're doin' is really substituting an alternative "advancement" or recognitions program for da BSA one. Lads who really know the oath and law get to do high adventure, or get a pizza party, or get more recognition from Mr. Greyeagle.

 

Yah, sure, it can work, although in most troops I've seen it doesn't work all that well. Far better to use Advancement Method along with all of da other methods to achieve the unit's goals. That's what it's designed for, eh? Some lads won't care about pizza or what Mr. Greyeagle thinks, but they will care about being given an award at a Court of Honor in front of their families and friends. For those lads (and the others at that COH), whether we expect 'em to know the Oath and Law to get an award matters.

 

Beavah

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

I would hardly call bringing one's handbook to the meeting modifying the requirements. After all, if the troop makes the scout keep track of this advancement (as we do, though we duplicate in Troopmaster) then how would the BOR even be able to verify that the scout had completed the requirements if it wasn't there?

 

Wearing of the uniform is one of many ways to measure scout spirit. And it is a part of a scout's patrol of the month score. Is it required? Not for advancement. But it is reqired to travel to and from all troop outings. And I would send someone home to change if they were, say part of a flag detail. But no scout will not advance because of it.

[OldGreyEagle]

Beavah, once again, I have no idea what you are talking about, I will just simply declare I would no problem asking a scout past Tednerfoot to recite the Oath and/or law, most of what you wrote makes no sense to me at all, sorry, I blame me

[cardinal50]

Regardless as to whether or not a scout should be required to recite the Scout Oath and Law, I cannot believe that anyone thinks that a scout is incapable of memorizing something as short and straight-forward as the Oath and Law( barring a learning diability.)They aren't exactly Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address.

Mercy!!!.

 

They should be repeated at every meeting, youth and adult by every scout and scouter.

 

 

How can we expect them (and us) to live by them if they/we can't even remember them?

 

Just my humble opinion,

Dave

 

[evmori]

They should be repeated at every meeting, youth and adult by every scout and scouter.

 

Yes it should.

 

But be aware that a Scout who is poorly prepared for the board, one who clearly has not achieved what his book says that he has, is a product, as much of his own merits as of the merits of those who have brought him the board, to those who have signed off his accomplishments without actually having them properly achieved." he doesn't bring the book, how does the BOR sign off in the book?

 

And that poorly prepared Scout might be in full uniform!

 

A Scout handbook is the Scout's record and is by no means official! The BOR signs off on the advancement form. That is official.

[Eagledad]

>>A Scout handbook is the Scout's record and is by no means official! The BOR signs off on the advancement form. That is official.

[acco40]

What is your name? You can't ask me that, that would be a test!

 

Come on folks, use some common sense. What is the purpose of a BOR? The board of review is how the troop committee tracks the progress of a Scout to determine his understanding of the ideals of Scouting and how he applies them in daily life in the troop. If the board of review is for rank advancement, the board will satisfy itself that the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for that rank and will review with the Scout the requirements for the next rank. The board of review is also a way of reviewing the troop's progress.

 

This review is not and should not be an examination or retest of skills learned. Rather, it is an attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders.

 

So how does a BOR review the progress of the troop? Hey son, would you tie a bowline for me? Johnny, would you please recite the Scout Oath and Law? First Class Scout Smith, can you tell me what you learned from the Personal Fitness merit badge? These are all acceptable questions to help in formulating the progress of the troop and the Scouts perception of the troop and adult leaders. What the Board of Reveiw Committee should not do is to determine pass/fail of the BOR based on the answers to these questions. That would constitute a test.

 

One of the failings that our troop has, is that as Scoutmaster, I never once received any feedback - positive or negative - from the troop committee or advancement chair based on what Scouts have mentioned in BORs.

 

 

[FScouter]

Please! Who's going to tell a boy his book is not "official"?? It's his book, his accomplishements, his Scouting experience. He totes his book to his leader to get it signed. THAT is official.

 

The clipboard carried around by a misguided adult, with data compliled by other misguided adults is a figment. You wonder why a boy doesn't use his book? It's because misguided adults demonstrate at every turn the book is not needed, for anything.

Frank