Scout Oath and Law for advancement

[Cubmaster Mike]

I could use some input.

 

As one of the many ASMs in our troop it is my privilege now and then to perform a Scoutmaster conference for boys advancing a rank. Our troop has a form that the Scout fills out for his Scoutmaster conference where the Scout describes a portion of what he did for his rank. I review the form with him and then have him state the Scout Oath and Law. In the last four months I have had 2 scouts, one going for 1st Class and one going for Star that could not state either the Oath or the Law- meaning that they could only say half the Law and not all of the Oath.

 

Personally I think that knowing and committing to it is important. Not wanting to deny the boy access to a Board of Review. I wrote a note at the bottom of each of these two reviews stating that the boy should practice and repeat the Oath and Law for the BOR. This typically gives him 1-2 weeks to practice it since BORs are held once a month.

 

Just before the last BOR I asked my son who was putting on his uniform to get his book to bring it to the review. He told me that books are not required.

 

Fast forward to the following week at the Committee meeting. The BOR chair was there and I asked her if she reviewed books at the BOR. She said no, that boys would lose books and that the troop kept records of the boys advancement. I told her that I recognize the need to keep troop records but that a boy should be required to keep records of his progress and present it as part of his advancement.

 

She told me that that was not her responsibility (this is true).

 

While I understand that there are boys who will lose a library of handbooks, I do believe that the Scout should track his advancement and show what he did for a rank. Example- one of the boys I was giving a ride home after a Troop meeting told me that the was going to have a conference next week for his 1st class rank. I asked him who he invited to a meeting- he paused, and thought, then asked "I have to invite someone to a meeting? Is that a requirement?" I think that there has to be some kind of a checklist that a Scout can do.

 

Meanwhile back at the BOR:

She then stated that there was "some leader" who wrote on a couple of forms that the Scout was to recite the Scout Oath and Law at the Board of Review and she will never do that since it was a test and that was not what they do.

 

I told her that "some leader" was me. It was not my intention to have the BOR test the Scout (I know they don't), merely to give the boy a chance to practice the Oath and Law before the BOR so that I did not hold up his advancement.

 

The CC suggested that we take this back to the Uniformed Leader Meeting where we will discuss the Oath and Law and making a Scout learn it. I will also bring up the progress record -anybody remember the old pocket progress record books we had back in the 70s?

 

So my questions are two-fold:

1. Advancement record- Should a boy show what he did to earn a rank? Personally I'd like to change the Scoutmaster Conference form to include a simple check off sheet of the requirements so that the Scout can show his progress.

 

2. Oath and Law- should I not sign off on a Scoutmaster conference if a Scout does not know the Oath and Law? I think that this is really important stuff. Scout spirit and all.

 

CMM

 

 

[Lisabob]

Hi Mike,

 

Sounds to me like you're in the dreaded grey area, where there are lots of opinions to be found.

 

A couple of things jumped out at me when reading your post. First, there IS a checklist for the boys to use for each rank. And guess what, it is in the back of the handbook! Second, this business about boys losing things is undoubtedly true, but the question is how your troop wants to respond when losses happen.

 

On that front, here's what our troop does.

 

1) The boy is expected to have his handbook with him at BORs. Not only do we want it there so we can sign it, but it also serves as a conversation piece between the boys and the BOR members, especially at the lower ranks where there are all those skill sign offs. I've seen some younger boys who are really nervous and can barely speak, but put the book in their hand and start asking them about the specifics ("tell us about the hike you took for requirement#__. I see that you got your sign off last week from John for that.") then they're fine. Additionally, the book is treated like the "permanent record" in our troop so that if there's a question of whether the adv. chair entered something properly into troopmaster, he and the scout can go back to the book to check.

 

2) Losing books - it happens. My son lost his first one, which I had purchased for him. I made him buy his second one. He is much more careful with it, never leaves it out in the rain, doesn't mash it all up, etc. He found himself in a pickle because he was ready to advance to 1st cl, except he had no book. Well a scout is responsible, even though that's not in the oath or law. He found a way to earn some cash and bought it so that he would be ready for his BOR. By the way he had a whole stack of MB partials in the lost handbook. Oh well, going to have to go back to the start on those because the blue card was the only record of his progress. (In fairness, most were far from complete anyway and on many he could just go back to the MBC and get his new blue cards updated. But on a few from an out of state summer camp he was out of luck.)

 

When my son got his new book, he and an ASM went through and the ASM re-signed everything from the previous ranks and put a note in the book indicating what had happened. We also keep patrol notebooks where, from time to time, progress toward the next rank can be recorded (more important for T-2-1 since there are so many more requirements). So a boy who loses his book can reference the patrol notebook too. But, end of the day, he is expected to have the book with sign offs at both his SMC and his BOR.

 

About the Oath and Law. You state that you are "one of the many ASMs" in the troop. I think that this is a good topic for discussion at an upcoming SM/ASM meeting. While I tend to agree with your approach myself, this is something where you all need to be on the same page. Ideally, your SM should be setting the standard. Once everyone on the program side (SM/ASMs) is in agreement, then someone can work on communicating that agreement and expectation to the folks on the committee side, who are doing the BORs.

 

And finally, about your son and his "books aren't required" approach to his BOR. There's a chance to point out that you don't get much in life by doing the bare minimum requirements, and going just a little beyond can make a big difference. Not that it is highly likely to sink in right away...he'll probably roll his eyes if he's anything like most teenage boys I know!

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

[scottteng]

You don't need a separate sheet it is provided for you in the back of the scout's handbook these should be reviewed at the SMC especially in our troop as our committee members will surely review it with him at his BOR. For the higher ranks Star and Life you also want to review the scouts blue cards for merit badges. We recite the oath and the law at each and every meeting with the boys taking turns leading it becomes apparent very quickly who does not know it but the repetition wins out in the end. Now the application of the law is a different story I have a discussion with every candidate about which point of the law they are of the opinion they have cold and which point they are struggling with. I would recommend that you attempt to get your committee to change their no books policy. This is all training leading to the point where an Eagle candidate is required to present his Eagle book to the EBOR. We intentionally stopped keeping such detailed records except in the scouts book because there was no drawback to losing ones book so more scouts lost them.

[kenk]

In my simplistic view:

 

>> Having Scouts fill out a form for the SM Conference is adding to the requirements. It may be for the convenience of those involved, but it is not in the BSA process.

 

>> The "testing" for requirements is to be done BEFORE they are signed off in the back of the handbook.

 

>> The SM Conference is intended to be a focal point of communication between the Scout and the SM. Part of it is to review the Scout's experience during the period that the rank was being earned. Part of it should be a discussion about their time spent doing service and in their position of responsibility. Part of it is a bit of review regarding the requirements - BUT it should not be a complete retest of the requirements. I could easily see SM conferences being followed up with feedback to the PLC, as appropriate.

 

>> The BOR is intended to be a focal point of communication between the Scout and members of the Troop Committee. The idea is for the Committee members to determine whether the troop (and SM) is providing an appropriate Scouting experience for the Scout(s). In my view, BORs should really be followed by some kind of feedback to the SPL and the SM. The BOR is NOT - and never should be - a retest of rank requirements. In my view it would not be appropriate for a SM to ask the BOR adults to test a Scout.

 

>> Regarding the particular requirement to be able to repeat from memory the Scout Oath & Law, that is Tenderfoot requirement 7. That requirement is not repeated in any of the subsequent ranks, so quite frankly I'm not sure how it would have come up in a FC or Star SM conference.

 

>> Have you never memorized something only to forget it later?

 

>> It is a good practice to have Scouts repeat the Scout Oath & Law often enough during troop meetings and other activities so that the Scouts can't help but keep them in memory. Yeah, I know troop openings need variety, but I'm one of those who feels the Oath & Law need to be repeated - often.(This message has been edited by kenk)

[Hal_Crawford]

In our troop it is tradition to start all BORs with the Oath and the Law. It is not a retest and to my knowledge no one has ever been denied advancement because the forgot. It is merely viewed as a formal start to a formal occasion. You do learn a lot about a scout's spirit by how he is uniformed, how he stands and makes the scout sign and delivers the words that are supposed to guide his every action as a scout.

 

When I was CC I chaired an EBOR and the scout went up (actor's phrase for forgetting his lines) on the Scout Law. I think he made it to "Helpful". Every attempt got him further from the right words. After a couple of tries I suggested that he go back outside, take a moment to collect his thoughts and then, when he was ready, come back in and try again. No big deal, take as much time as you need. The world's greatest actors sometimes forget their lines. He stepped outside, returned after a minute or so, said the law perfectly and went on to have an excellent EBOR. It actually was an icebreaker for the rest of the discussion.

 

If I had a scout that I knew had problems with speaking from memory I might suggest omitting this ceremony but it has never been a problem. We would certainly ask questions about what the Oath and or Law means to them and applies in their daily lives.

 

FWIW, my 2 cents.

Hal

 

 

[Eagledad]

We had a 17 year old Scout, whose family transferred from Colorado, join our troop. He was a great kid and a fine scout and he was only one MB away from Eagle. When he finished the MB, he brought all his stuff and handed to me and asked me to tell him when to be at the EBOR. I told him that was his responsibility and he was actually supposed to tell me the date and time of his EBOR. I then gave him the number to the District EBOR Chairman.

 

I could tell he was frustrated and a week later he showed up with his dad. His dad very politely expressed that they didnt know what to do. The troop in Colorado did everything from keeping all the MB Cards, the scouts books, found and assigned Eagle Projects, filled out the Eagle packet and set up the EBOR. I explained to dad that our scouts keep all their paperwork and book records and they have to complete the Eagle packet and set up the EBORs. We also keep records on the computers, but that is not how the scouts present their records.

 

That was one of the ways we encourage responsibility and self reliance. We will advise of course if we are asked, but the scouts do the foot work. His dad thanked me and they got it done. He later admitted that it was kind of hard finishing up the Eagle Packet, but there was a lot of satisfaction in it.

 

At some point we have to start treating boys like men, I think requiring the scout to keep his records and book up to date is a good start. I was lost at why the Colorado troop took away the Scouts books. Besides keeping records, those books are more importantly their skills hand books for survival. We encouraged our scouts to always have their books nearby just for that reason. If they forget a skill, they only need to grab their book to refresh their memory. They learned quickly not to ask any question without first checking their book. Thats why even the uniform policy should be fairly clear. Again its also more practice in self reliance. Scouts do loose books, I know because I had a dozen at my house when I retired as a SM. But they always figure out their records. Typically they only loose the book once.

 

I think being asked to recite the Scout Law and Oath now and then just reminds the scout how much he reflects on them. I also think if the scouts typically struggle with reciting them, then the adults arent encouraging enough reflection of the law and oath. The Law and Oath should be standards the scouts are trying meet. What are the adults standards if they arent using the law and oath?

 

Oh, that Eagle I talked about, he was given a medal from our city for resuscitating the life of baby who drowned in a swimming pool. I'm honored to have been his SM just for a few short months.

 

Good Discussion. I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[evmori]

 

 

I have a question - What does this form have to do with A Scoutmaster Conference? This is not a pass fail requirement. It is a participate in requirement.

 

 

 

I have another question - Other than Tenderfoot, what other rank requires the Scout to repeat the Oath & Law? While I agree a Scout should know it, there is no requirement (other than #7 for Tenderfoot) for a Scout to repeat it. I see no harm in asking him to repeat both at his rank BOR, but it shouldn't be required.

[BrentAllen]

CMM,

In our Troop, the Scout is expected to have his Scout book for a SM conference or BOR. This shouldn't be a problem for them, as we don't consider a Scout in full uniform (for Honor Patrol contest) unless they have their book with them. At the SM Conference, I review the book with them to make sure everything is signed off and they are ready for the BOR.

 

If you think memorizing the Scout Oath and Law are important parts of Scout Spirit, then yes, the Scout should know them. I happen to agree with that sentiment, and I wouldn't sign off if I knew they didn't have them memorized. We start each meeting with the Pledge, Oath and Law, so they should have it down. I don't ask beyond the Tenderfoot requirement, but if I had reason to believe they had forgotten it, I would ask.

[CalicoPenn]

The first thing I noticed is that the Committee Chair is spot on with the program - she must have been trained. The BOR is not a retest and she ensure's that it isn't. You have a good leader there.

 

I've never heard of a form that a Scout must fill out before his Scoutmaster's Conference. However, I do like your idea of modifying the one your unit uses now (which does seem a bit like it's a self-evaluation) to a simple checklist of all the items required for a rank - especially since the Troop doesn't require books to be present at the BOR (there is no requirement anywhere in BSA literature that books be present - but many units do request that they be there - but if a lad is denied advancement for not having their book (or being in full uniform) it is appealable) - it's a handy little sheet that the Units Advancement Chair can refer to later when filling out the paperwork - and lets the Board know that yes, the lad has fulfilled all the other requirements. Now if a lad wants to bring his book, I wouldn't discourage it.

 

I would, however, discourage questions that refer to requirements in the book by number. One should be able to get a lad to start to open up by simply asking about the five mile hike, rather than asking about requirement 5B (which is sure to get a lad to freeze up).

 

There is no requirement that a lad recite the Scput Oath and/or Scout Law at a Board of Review or Scoutmaster's Conference (not even for Tenderfoot - it's required he learn it to be signed off on it, but it isn't required - or allowed - that he be retested on it. I know many Troops do require it, and it sounds like a good idea - but it is wrong, and shouldn't be done - but as long as no one is denied advancement over it, no one will kick up much of a fuss.

 

That being said, part of the BOR and Scoutmaster's Conference is to gather feedback on how the unit is doing. I do agree that it's important to know and live by the Scout Oath and Law - the fact that two of the lads (one advancing to Star!) weren't able to recite would lead me to conclude that something is missing from the opening of weekly meetings - We know the Pledge of Allegiance because we said it every day for weeks until we learned it - and then kept saying it (eventually to once per week in the upper grades). The same is true of the Scout Oath and Law - they aren't difficult to learn, IF they are said on a regular basis - and for most Troops, that is as opening ceremonies for the Troop Meetings (is your Troop doing a flag ceremony every week), campouts, etc. If it's a regular part of the meetings, a Scout up for Star should know it cold and you shouldn't have to worry about whether he knows it or not.

 

Calico

[evmori]

WOW! Nowhere is a Scout even required to have a handbook let alone have one to be considered in full uniform! And there is no requirement that a Scout even own a uniform let alone wear it for any BOR! What other additions to the requirements are there in your unit, Brent?

[Cubmaster Mike]

great input!

 

 

To answer a couple of questions, if I did not mention it before, I've only been wiht this troop for a year now.

 

The troop does do weekly flag ceremonies, but the Oath and Law are not part of the opening or closing. I guess that since it is not said after they get tenderfoot, it gets lost. I can suggest to the SPL that he works it back into the program.

 

Where did the review form come from? Before my time. There was a past Scoutmaster who is spoken of with both awe and sarcasm (an interesting mix) who had created a great deal of the Troop's documentation. This form was passed down from her. When we joined it is now the practice that a Scout who wants to advance fill out this sheet and get his review. The handbooks are required for first year scouts to bring to all meetings, but now that you mention it, I have not seen a book past the first year.

 

It's a tender subject. New guy suggesting that boys use their books for record keeping when it has not been done before. Suggesting deviations from a form that has been used for several years. I'll have to think about that. Baby steps.

 

CMM

 

 

(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Mike)

[BrentAllen]

Ed,

Yes, Ed, we set a high standard and expect a lot from the Scouts in our Troop. You don't in your Troop?

 

In our Troop, they would have a hard time fitting in. The Scouts keep score for the Honor Patrol competition, so a Scout without a uniform would cost his patrol dearly. He would also have a hard time going on any trips, since we do require the uniform when traveling. Remember, the "no adding to the requirements" is in regard to advancement.

 

But playing your little game, if we did have a boy that joined without a uniform and a book, I guess he could be a Scout forever. If he wanted to advance, he would need a book. You know, reading the requirements and learning the material. All found in the book. We check off the requirements in the Scout's book as he completes them, so he, his parents, and the leaders know where he is on the next rank. Again, kind of hard to do without a book. The instructions for the SM Conference in the SM HB even mention reviewing the requirements for the next rank. Kind of hard to do without a book. Now, I've never met a Scout who didn't own a uniform or a book - have you?

 

So, how many times have you informed the Scouts in your Troop that they don't need a uniform or a book?

[evmori]

I'm not part of a Troop anymore,Brent, but when I was, we also set a high standard & expected a lot from our Scouts. But we didn't make up forms & add other stuff to the requirements.

[Beavah]

Yah, good discussion to have among your adult leaders, Cubmaster Mike. And even with your CO/COR. Yeh all need to have the same vision for what you want the program to be doin' for lads - what the outcome of seven years of Boy Scouting should be in their lives.

 

Then you work back from there to how you choose to implement da Methods in order to get where you want to go.

 

The strictly by-the-book, "no adding, no retesting" folks would argue that once a lad is signed off for the Tenderfoot requirement, he is never required to recite the Oath and Law again from memory, or describe what it means. Just like Ed is suggesting about uniforms.

 

That approach to da methods reflects an organizational vision of providin' an activity for boys to get 'em out of the house and make the parents feel good. Yah, and perhaps a tacit understandin' that a lad can get far in the world by quibblin' over minutia and doin' his best to twist the letter of the rules to his personal advantage, and that's an important skill to be learned.

 

There are some units where the organization really wants lads to develop character. They tend to spend a lot more time on da Oath and Law, but also on conversations with kids about character and scout spirit, and responsibility. They tend to "hold back" or slow-walk lads on advancement until they demonstrate such, though they do it in different ways. I reckon that describes your vision a bit... the question is just whether that vision is shared by the organization you're a part of.

 

Yah, still others care a lot about learnin' and skill development, perhaps as a part of buildin' character. Those units want their lifesavers to really be able to perform rescues, their boaters to be able to boat on their own, etc. Those units will ask and demand skills-based stuff as part of their advancement process.

 

Great thing about Scoutin' is that yeh get to decide, eh? What is your program for? An activity to get kids away from the game console and run around (but still move quickly to higher levels to keep their attention so they don't "quit"?). Or somethin' else? The program materials provide a great framework. Yeh get to decide how you use it dependin' on what you want to achieve as a group.

 

Beavah

 

Postscript

Yah, now before anybody thinks I was dissin' on their program for not developin' character or skills because they don't require it at advancement, that's not exactly what I mean, eh? In scoutin', if yeh don't place too much emphasis on advancement, yeh can always develop character or skills with other parts of the program. Some units succeed in that.

 

They're just not usin' the advancement method as well as they could, IMO, because they aren't rewardin' the growth in lads that they really care about.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[John-in-KC]

Personally,

 

When I was a committeeman or Chairman, I liked to ask the Scout coming in for Boards of Review to lead us in the Scout Oath and Law. I used it as a touchstone for all of us in the room, adults and young man alike.

 

Depending on the age of the Scout, I like to ask questions about how he interprets various parts of the Oath and Law, Motto and Slogan ... working to the Character Aim of Scouting.