Life by choice

[Kudu]

Do you see a pattern here? The things that boys HATE, like specific leadership positions as conditions for "Advancement," have NO PLACE in Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting. They were not even part of BSA Scouting until ... the pop business theory experts took over the BSA.

 

ljnrsu writes:

 

This is not new its been a part of BSA for awhile. 1. While a Life Scout for a period of six months show to the satisfaction of your leaders that you-Work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit.

 

My point exactly! Baden-Powells Patrol System depends on the service of Troop's best natural leaders as Patrol Leaders, therefore such service was NOT required of everyone in order to earn "Awards" (what we call "Ranks") in his "Progressive Training in SCOUTCRAFT" (what we call "Advancement').

 

Terms like "Ranks" (which should refer to leadership positions) and "Advancement" are a legacy of the BSA's origins in YMCA theory, which in 1910 rejected B-P's Patrol System in favor of modern "scientific" leadership with adult-led Patrols.

 

Given this historical legacy, the pre-1965 BSA requirements that you quote are the LEAST damaging way to include "leadership" in Advancement: They treat leadership work like Scout spirit requirements. Something that a good Scout DOES, not an OFFICE that he must grab in order to "advance."

 

The advantage to the Patrol Method is that Patrol Leaders with the actual rare talent to organize their own Patrol Hikes can continue to be Patrol Leaders while less talented Scouts can work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of their unit."

 

Leadership Development PORs killed Hillcourts Patrol Method the same way that they will destroy BSA waterfronts if we go leadership crazy and treat BSA Lifeguards like we treat Patrol Leaders.

 

ljnrsu writes:

 

In 1965 PORs and service projects for community and conservation were added to Star/Life/Eagle but that change was effective Jan 1. From different sources William Green Bar Bill Hillcourt retired Aug 1, 1965. He was still an employee of the BSA when those changes were proposed and implemented.

 

Reading between the lines of the White Stag Wikipedia entry, Hillcourt appears to have been excluded from the giddy excitement surrounding the movement to replace Scoutcraft (what outdoor boys want) with manager theory (what adults who work in classrooms and offices want). His name does not appear in any of the 1962-1965 committees listed there.

 

But Hillcourt was a company man. Did he have kind words for the Bela Banathy movement that would some day destroy his life's work, the Patrol Method? If so it was the biggest mistake of his life.

 

There were a number of other things that Bill Hillcourt was never allowed to change, including the schoolwork nature of BSA Merit Badges that boys hate so much.

 

As Baden-Powell's term implies, "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" means that a "King's Scout" is an absolute master of OUTDOOR SKILLS, rather than a master of the schoolwork paths to the Aims of Scouting that "Life by Choice" boys are more than happy to skip.

 

Kudu

[desertrat77]

Great discussion!

 

Earning Eagle isn't for every one...and the folks that top out at any other rank should be able to hold their heads high.

 

I've met some folks who regret their decision to not pursue Eagle. Usually, it's because they had all the resources, support and talent at their disposal, but just blew it off.

 

Either way, they should not be viewed as lesser scouts.

 

When I earned Eagle in 77, it was considered a good accomplishment--but not too big! The prevailing attitude was: you want to earn it? Great, get to work. No? That's fine too. Just be a good scout, please!

 

Today, waaaaaay too much emphasis is put on attaining Eagle.

 

Is Eagle the sole goal of BSA? I hope not. But we encourage that line of thought by sayings such as "once an Eagle, always an Eagle." Is a Life or Star scout's experience wiped away at midnight when they turn 18? No, not any more than the Eagle's.

 

So to me, the crucial point in all this is leadership. Whether you are a scoutmaster, shop foreman, first sergeant, school counselor, religious leader, it is up to you to recognize and groom the next Eagle, floor supervisor, squad leader, college bound freshman, pastor, what have you.

 

But if we have to drag them to the finish line, we may not be happy with the results.

 

As leaders in diverse professions, we do this at work, but then overlook it in scouting. Is every employee willing or able to be the next shop foreman? No. The same could be said for scouts. Not all are willing or able to make Eagle. But for those that might be, or show the gumption, we should do our 50% as leaders to give them the support they need to achieve it. But the scout must do their 50%. Regardless, we should treat all scouts--current and former--with respect.

 

Scouting isn't alone. For a couple decades, we've sent lots of young folks to college that would have been happier in a trade. But that's another story.

 

Off topic but:

GernBlansten, I got a chuckle out of your woodbadge comments...I agree!

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I was a Boy Scout from early 1968 until 1972, then an Explorer until I went to college in fall of 1974.

 

I had a tremendous amount of fun, and a tremendous amount of outdoor time. Even so, I got only about 12 merit badges. I was the second young man I know of to make Life Scout in my Troop in a while. Most stopped advancing at Star, and had fun there.

 

I was also the first Scout I know of in my Troop to go for my Brotherhood in OA.

 

Here are the major differences I see between the program then and now:

 

1) Star. When I was a Scout, I had to earn 1 Eagle Required MB of the 5 it took to make Star. The magic number now is 4 Eagle of 6 to make Star.

 

2) Life. Again, in the early 70s, it was 5 of 10. Now, it's 7 of 11.

 

Do you see the difference? The youth is on the backslope of his requirements, just by the organization of the advancement system.

 

3) Eagle was rarer in those days. There were fewer people who knew the trail, both youth and adults. It was tougher because it wasn't well blazed.

 

4) OK, it's "pet rock" time. COOKING MB. I'm so glad it was required. I can bake, roast, make a casserole, turn out a decent piece of meat off the broiler, and balance the food groups. I will wish that BSA restores Cooking to the Eagle list until they do, or until I draw my dying breath.

 

No, I'm not "Life for Life." The only Boy Scout rank which translates to adulthood is Eagle. I was a Boy Scout. As a youth member, I completed my participation at the rank of Life. Now, I'm a Scouter.

[Daddy_O]

I'm new, and not well-qualified... Please don't beat me up too muc on my 2nd point:

 

1) My late younger brother was "Life 4 life" It was his life's biggest regret. He was not a self-starter and he just did not have the momentum to get over the top.

 

2) I've been attending a few patrol / troop meetings trying to find the right group for my son (yes, I'm that Daddy_O!!)

 

You can observe a lot by just watching!

 

IMO the "leadership requirements" of which you write are missplaced, and not a good idea. Not every kid is a leader. Many never will be. It's like saying your kid is a scholar. It sounds good, we all want it for our boys, but there is a talent component that you either got it or you don't. To place a non-leader in a leadership position so as to earn them an advancement really weakens the group. This is true in all occupations. Boys follow a natural leader, not a kid who is appointed a leader.

[Venividi]

daddy0,

 

You are right. that is why there are also Positions of Responsibility that qualify. Positions such as quartermaster and historian, where a scout takes responsibility to make sure that the troop equipment is inventory is kept accurate and follows up with scouts that may not have returned equipment prompty, that the equipment is cared for, and repaired or replaced when needed, etc.

Or historian, where a scout keeps a scrapbook (or web page) filled with pictures and reports of all the trips and campouts the troop has taken during the period that he serves, and perhaps creates displays for courts of honor with those pictures and reports.

These positions do not require leadership, but do require that the scout take responsibility and fulfill the requirements for the position.

Cheers

[Knot Head]

Kudu... you hit the nail on the head with your post in this thread.

 

Our scouts love to backpack, fish, snow ski, canoe, climb, white water raft, pioneer, wilderness survival. Every year they put a campout built around those activities on the calendar. They have a blast. They complain about any the MB's that are "schoolwork" that they have to do.

 

I like your comment: "In a perfect Scouting association, Scouts would fail to achieve Eagle Scout because they hate camping."

 

Daddy_O said ...

>>>IMO the "leadership requirements" of which you write are missplaced, and not a good idea. Not every kid is a leader. Many never will be. It's like saying your kid is a scholar. It sounds good, we all want it for our boys, but there is a talent component that you either got it or you don't. To place a non-leader in a leadership position so as to earn them an advancement really weakens the group. This is true in all occupations. Boys follow a natural leader, not a kid who is appointed a leader.

[fgoodwin]

My son is a Life, and has been for a year and a half.

 

He's only a freshman in HS, but I doubt if he'll finish his Eagle. He says he wants to do it, but every time I mention MBs, his eyes just roll back in his head. I had a deal with him as a Webelos (he wanted to quit then): if he stayed in long enough to make First Class, I would not push him any further. I think I've lived up to my end of the deal (he made Star & Life on his own terms and schedule). I will love him the same whether he tops out as a Life or an Eagle.

 

I just hope he has no regrets later in life if he stops at Life.

[asm 411]

My son is a Life Scout. He has earned First Aid, Swimming, Life Saving, Emergency Prep, Cycling, Camping, Environmental Science, mammals, archery, wilderness survival, rifle and metal working.

 

Note: I believe the only reason he completed Environmental Science is that the councilor at summer camp was very charismatic and my son really enjoyed doing the merit badge with him.

 

He has a partial in Personal Fitness. Can you guess which requirement he has not done?

 

He has not started on Family Life, Personal Management, Communications or any of the Citizenship merit badges.

 

For that matter the only required merit badge he does not have that he has discussed with me at length is Hiking. He says he would like to earn all the required merit badges.

 

He has trouble being self motivated to do his homework. I see a pattern here.

 

He loves the outing in Scouting. He has talked about being an Eagle since he was a Tiger because he knew that I am an Eagle not because he knew at that age what it meant. He now says he wants to be an Eagle when he is 15. He picked 15 because he wanted to earn Eagle Scout at a younger age than I did. It is a good goal and I will be there to help where and when I can.

 

Unless he changes his view of classroom type work he may be Life for life. That is fine if that is how things turn out because I am happy that we have a million happy memories now and adding to the list every week.

[resqman]

I completed all the requirements to earn the rank of Eagle and was awarded the badge. I attended college for four years but never earned my degree.

 

As an adult, the only time people ever ask me what degree I hold is during job interivews. I run my own business now so it is much less of an issue. I periodically regret not having a degree. Not so much for the specific knowledge but rather the recognition that I followed through and completed a difficult task.

 

Eagle is more than just a set of skills you earn. It is recognition that you completed a list of tasks that individually are not that difficult but taken as a whole represent the gumption to see it through. The world outside BSA does not know what the individual tasks are/were and don't really care. They recognize that an Eagle has the ability to make things happen, to follow through, to overcome obstacles not just once but over an extended period of time.

 

I can always go back and finish my degree. You cannot go back and finish the Eagle rank. There is a time limit. Unfortunately 11-18 yr olds do not fully understand how the they decision make at that age can affect them later.

 

 

[AMulls]

"On my honor...to keep myself physically strong, MENTALLY AWAKE, and morally straight..."

 

Yes, a HUGE part of Scouting is the outdoors (and is clearly the favorite part for most scouts). But Scouting is much more than that. The program is also designed to help boys become good men.

 

That sometimes entails doing things we don't want to do in order to better ourselves. It also means being a good person and citizen. Those "homework" MBs that most scouts dread, do accomplish this. And, as I highlighted above, also help them to keep mentally awake.

 

Granted, I'm not up on my history of the Scout Oath, but I'm guessing it was around looong before the Patrol Method went out of style...

[BDPT00]

"the patrol method went out of style"

I'm really curious, because I see it mentioned frequently, when did the patrol method go out of style? It's one of the Methods. It's used in the PL Handbook, SPL Handbook, BS Handbook, SM Handbook, NYLT, NAYLE, and Wood Badge. Apparently, it's not used the way some would wish. I apologize to those who know I've opened up a can of worms, but other than "it ain't the way it used to be," what's the issue?

BDPT00

[Herms]

My 2 cents. Get a copy of the "Eagle Charge" and let the Scout read it. If he doesn't forsee himself fulfilling his committment and the responsibility that comes with attaining Eagle than let them age out at Life, or like Shortridge stated if the Scout feels like he got what he wanted out of Boy Scouts... then let him go. The Scout has to want it (which is real hard for some Parents to take).