Eagle Advisors

[SR540Beaver]

jblake47,

 

Sorry, but I don't understand what you just said. Let's say you have a mixed age patrol. In the patrol, you have a 16 year old Life scout with a job who can't fulfill the responsibilites of a PL. You also have a 13 year old 2nd Class who can. The boy-led patrol elects the 2nd Class scout. What is the issue? If you meddle in this arrangement, you are adult leading the process.

[Twocubdad]

Unfortunately, with the byzantine Eagle project review process we have locally, most adults don't understand it, much less the Scouts. Our Advancement Chairman went to school on the details of the process so he now serves as our "Eagle Lawyer".

 

We try to have mutiple people involved in the process, not one "Eagle Advisor." It's primarily me (SM) and the advancement chairman. We pull others in as needed. For example, we have one dad who's business is doing CAD drawings. He invites the Scouts to his office to work on drawings an occasionally squeezes a Drafting MB out of the process. We're in a bit of a lull right now, but if we ramp up to more than a couple guys actively working on a project, we'll pull more adults into the process.

 

Back in my day (1973) Eagle Advisor was a district position. When you made Life you had to meet with your Eagle Advisor to get your Life badge (you were given only the card at the Court of Honor). Honestly, can't speak to the full process as my advisor had a coronary shortly after I met with him the first time. My SM took over from there.

[gcnphkr]

To think that having an Eagle advisor takes away from the SM is a mistake. I'm the SM for a troop of 60. We had 12 Eagles in the last year. I was very involved with each. But the advisor provided an additional resource for the scout to use. He doesn't need to use the advisor and the advisor is not a gatekeeper. Could I do without him? Sure, but I'd not serve all the scouts as well.

 

As for the PL working with the scout. Often this is the PL, ASPL, SPL in the first place. He may be an older scout who has been AWOL for the past year and not likely even think of himself as being in a patrol.

[Stosh]

A PL of any rank has a responsibility to all members of his patrol regardless of their rank. I for one don't find how helpful an adult advisor can do for a Life scout than any of the other boys. Read the book, that's why it's there. 6-7 of your buddies working with the Life scout is boy-led, and introduction of an adult "advisor" is not. Sure, the Life scout can ask questions of any and all adults in the troop, outside the troop as well. He has to show leadership and that includes asking the appropriate people the right questions at times.

 

As far as AWOL Life scouts that are hanging on the fringes only to get a rank is pretty much out of the running in terms of participation and being a part of a program. It has always amazed me how these scouts expect help from their buddies and otherwise except for their Eagle project they haven't the time of day for them. From my perspective, I have a difficult time working up a heap of sympathy for these boys. You're in or you're out, don't come around looking for the pay check when you didn't show up for work.

 

Stosh

[packsaddle]

We had some really bad experiences that led to the appointment by the SM of an unofficial Eagle advisor (me). Now the troop has me to keep track of the latest forms and arcane requirements by the council and district. Now things are running smoothly and the SM is a happy guy again. We just had three EBORs in the last two weeks. No problems.

 

When they make Life, I give them copies of the appropriate forms and show them the requirements. I make myself available if they have questions. And then they are on their own unless they need help or advice. When they ask I respond. They know the score. Some wait until the last minute and others get right to it. But they do it on their own (of course parents are free to push if they want). And I attend the EBOR as a silent observer.

[gumbeauxx]

I'm new to this forum, and new as Troop Committee Chair, but have been involved with Scouts since my son (15) was a Tiger Cub.

 

The troop in which we participate is fairly large, (50) and we have currently about 15 Star or Life Scouts, with 4 currently somewhere in the Eagle Project phases from working on initial plans to just completed their physical work and are completing the remainder of the project work/post-project evalutaion/lessons learned etc.

 

We have 3 or 4 others who are just about ready to need an Eagle Coach. There's no way one single person could (or should want to) try to assist all these scouts in their work towards an Eagle project.

 

As someone else said, in effect, different strokes for different troops.

[bmcdonald138]

I've been the Eagle Coordinator in two troops for the past 3 years. I think it's a great job! I'm military and my wife and kids live to far away to go home to every night, but that's where my eldest got his Eagle, and my other son will earn his Eagle this fall. I get to a few troop meeting and campouts a year with that Troop. Going to Philmont with them this year. My Troop at Ft. Bragg gets me Monday through Thursday but seldom for campouts. Both troops come together at Ft Bragg for two combined campouts in Dec and Jan....SO I get to have fun with two Scout Troops and work with older boys in both Troops.

 

As for Eagle Coordinator, I really enjoy it and and have helped nearly a bunch of Life Scouts worktheir way through that last tough part, their Project and BOR. I built a CD that goes to every young man when he becomes a Life Scout. I hold an initial meeting with each Life Scout, give them a CD that has two folders, one for Eagle Project Planning and one for Eagle Courts of Honor. We talk and discuss what a project is, when they can start it etc...They receive a copy of the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, and checklist that takes them step by step through the process. Next the Scout develops his idea, we meet again and polish his plan, brief the SM on the plan then send him out to discuss with the recepient of the potential project, gain their approval. The Scout then writes up his plan, we polish it somemore, get SM approval, submit it to Council/District. Once Council/District approves the plan the young man is off to the races. Once the project is complete we polish the writeup, prepare the packet for submission to COuncil, prepare his Eagle Rank Application, do a uniform inspection and talk about what to expect for his Eagle BOR. I really enjoy helping Life Scouts with what is usually their last big push for Eagle. It's no fun with the young man is turning 18 in a few months adn time is his enemy. Some win, some lose that race.

 

Now I have been involved with Eagle BOR where one member of the EBOR trys to be the keeper of the gate and that's wrong. Unfortuantely there are those out there with that trait. I see me as the counterbalance to that person. I still have vivid memories of my EBOR and how nervous I was before that Board. Managed to scrape by that board, wish I had somebody to help guide me through the process back then. Now I give back by helping potential Eagles.

[mojo]

HELP. My son has been in scouts since Tiger. He entered boyscouts in the fifth grade with his arrow of light and has stayed on track advancing quickly. He had a slight delay from star to life and it seems liked his scout master was trying to hold him and his buddy back because they were advancing quicker than the rest of their patrol. He made life in February and is currently working on his 21st merit badge. (He is 13, will be 14 by eagle and is at the end of seventh grade). There are two patrols of boys ahead of him who have made life and almost none of them have started their eagle projects. He has diligently been working on his eagle project and went in for a meeting with the troop master in April to have it approved. The scout master (a very very well respected person in the community who I have always respected) took another well respected leader in to the meeting with my son. They then manipulated, bullied and shamed my son for an hour without his parents in ear shot telling him he had not "given back to the troop enough" so they were not going to even look at his project. They went as far as to very kindly ask him why they should waste their gas to drive out and help him with his eagle project (you know, the one they didn't look at). My son was shocked. He was given the okay to plan it, met with the benefiting organization and has this organization depending on him. He has now been trying to kiss a--for a month trying to get a signature and so far no luck. We would go to the district advancement chair but guess who it is. Yep, his same scout master. We have gone to the district commissioner who is ALSO in our troop and one of his good friends and asked for an ealge advisor who is not the scout master. We said we would be happy for any one of the assistant scout masters to do it. He doesn't need anything but the signature! We are still waiting. He says he has to check with council because he doesn't think anyone but the scout master can sign the eagle packet. When we point out it says coach or advisor as well he states he thinks this is for crew and adventuring. So here we wait. My son is crushed. He's one of those goody goody yes sir types, not a rebellious or pushy boy. My husband was told this was a chow line and my son didn't get her first. So he is suppose to wait for these other 14 scouts to make life before he does his project?They also told my son as he sat shamed in the meeting that if he didn't like it he could go to another troop. Really, and WHO exactly will sit on his board of review if we do that? Oh that's right-this same scout master who is the district advancement chair. Does anyone have anything from national BSA that says who can be an eagle advisor? We have tried the play nice route and it isn't working. ANY ADVICE IS APPRECIATED.

[packsaddle]

Mojo, Welcome to the forums. Nice name by the way. Please remember and try to communicate this to your son as well, that those leaders who are stonewalling are well-meaning volunteers who THINK they are doing the right thing. Unfortunately the structure of your organization seems to have placed them where there is no way to appeal to good sense or another authority.

I suggest you refer to this thread which has discussed the issues for which your son provides a textbook example: http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=238986

If you read through that thread you'll see diverse opinions but I doubt that very many of the respondents would side with your son's leaders. That said, those leaders don't have to listen to anything other than their own opinions. They aren't likely give an inch if there is no other source of oversight. Which seems to be the case for your son. Therefore, I think you have done what you can do.

If there IS another unit that does things correctly, I think it is time to send your message in the form of footsteps disappearing to the other unit. The unit I support has picked up several outstanding scouts over the years for precisely these kinds of things and we appreciate it. Those boys ALL made Eagle and have gone on to be fine citizens. And WE have their names on our plaque because someone else stood in their way in another unit. Their loss...our gain.

If you decide to make the move, make sure your son communicates this clearly as the reason to the other scouts. Could be some of them are ready to send a message as well. But remember, don't do this unless it is clearly the best choice for your son...and not to 'get at' those leaders who are standing in the way. They are good people who see things differently and don't have to listen to alternatives. Let the market give them the message if they can't get it any other way.

[mojo]

We would vote with our feet, but again the problem there is if he is eligible to apply for Eagle in August. That is right around the corner and then this same scout master who is district chair gets to sit on his BOR. If we stay he can't sit on his BOR and that is our only bit of power. My son has been so beaten up that he now has no interest in continuing in scouts. They could have simply said, we're too busy as a troop to let you do your project in May but good job and it will amazing to have an eagle scout in the troop to help the younger boys along...instead they told him he was a looser and he could leave. So as soon as he is Eagle, he will. We want to encourage him to join a venturing unit but I think he now is looking forward to stepping away from scouts and taking a break. So sad. Why is BSA set up with so little accountability?

[NealOnWheels]

You could move to another unit who would be supportive. You still need the approval of the District Advancement Chairman before beginning the project however.

 

Can you join a unit in a neighboring district? Or perhaps see if the Council Advancement Chair will review and approve the project.

 

Then it gets a little messy come Board of Review time but there is an appeals process.

 

You may be able to get commissioner support by skipping your Unit Commissioner and going directly to the District Commissioner.(This message has been edited by NealOnWheels)

[scoutingagain]

Well I was going to post I'm the Eagle Advisor for the unit I serve and fullfill the functions pretty much outlined by Gern. I can honestly say other than an occaisional, "How's the application coming?" or "Have you thought about any idea's for a project?", I do little of the cajoling, nagging, prodding etc.

 

Now Mojo,

 

As Pack noted I'm sure the adults think they're doing some good here. It may be that if your son is the goody good type, and only 13, they may feel he needs some maturing to really be Eagle material. I don't agree with it but I can't really say what's motivating them. However, they should be telling him what he needs to do to meet the requirements, not just holding him up. Other than,"not giving back enough to the troop", what have they suggested he do to complete the requirements?

 

Having said that consider, if you do transfer to another unit, and he has the support of the adult leadership of that unit, he can complete his Eagle relatively quickly. Yes, the District Advancement Chair may deny him at the District EBOR, but this is appealable to the Council and ultimately to National. If your son has completed all the requirements, has his paperwork in order, has all the merit badges etc., he will get his Eagle. The toughest nut to crack going to a new unit in my opinion would be the time in a postion of responsibility(POR). If that is not signed off at the time of transfer, I could see a new SM wanting to see this requirement completed on his watch. This could also be done in a Venture Crew. He does not need to stay in a troop to complete his Eagle requirements.

 

Good luck,

 

SA

[mojo]

exactly, it does get messy. If we walk we give him power to sit on his BOR as the district advancement chair. But because he is the scout master if we stay, he can't sit on his BOR. That means someone else from district sits on his BOR. We may request a council BOR anyway...He really wants to have a COH with his best friend who was able after several meetings to get his project approved just before my son went in. He was most put out that these two boys have stepped up and I think decided he had to come up with something to keep my son from moving forward. Now he is held hostage. My son now has to find a way to prove himself and must say yes to any thing the scout master requests regardless of whether or not it is good for him or our family.

 

another interesting point is that the committee is made up almost of all parents of older scouts who have sat around for 6-18 months not working on their eagle project. The scout master is friends with alot of these people and he has slowly been making his rounds to gather support. I can't say how shocked I am as we have been an active family in scouts and our son is loved by all.

 

The other thing that has come out is they have decided it is going to be much harder for a boy to make rank at star and life. The kids will have to "give back to the troop". That is why not adding to requirements is so important. It is too subjective to say "Well you've filled a role of responsibility for 6 months and you come every week and you do whatever I ask , but that's not good enough because I don't think you've shown enough leadership." If you want to add to requirements add it in an objective way. At least then we'd know if he did the requirements. Why don't the leaders have to abide by the scout oath and law? What ever happened to a scout(leader) being obedient (to the policies of the BSA). Funny thing there is NOTHING about leadership in the mission of BSA or the scout oath and law. It's about character and raising boys to be guided by ehtics, which I think now are sorely lacking.

[mojo]

Scouting again, No they have not told him what he needs to do. He will have filled Position of responsibility six months in August so we won't do anything until then. He is working on his last merit badge which he will finish in June. (Which the SM told his friend he wouldn't sign the blue card until the whole patrol had finished it since they opened it together).

 

We took the patrol to a scouting merit badge university to do Cit. in the world and it was a great experience. The SM knew we were going, never said anything. And at the meeting with my husband got upset that now he has "no way to slow this patrol down". The boys may not be as "mature" as a 16 year old Eagle. But Eagle is a rank. You earn it at your own rate. There are plenty examples of boys making eagle young and staying in troops, and there are plenty of example of both the younger and the older scout leaving as soon as they make eagle. But holding a boy hostage is no way to encourage him to stay in a troop.

 

I make the SM sound awful and the funny thing he is one of the nicest guys ever. If you knew him you wouldn't think he would be capable of this behavior. My son has been done with his write up for almost a month and not letting him get a signature is a wrong doing to both the boy and the benefiting organization.

[packsaddle]

Here are the facts as I understand them from you:

1) Your son is 13 and has been enthusiastic about scouting

2) He has advanced quickly to Life

3) He has identified an Eagle service project that the recipient organization has approved

4) The SM and one other leader met with your son and claimed that "he had not "given back to the troop enough" so they were not going to even look at his project." They have not examined the project proposal

5) The SM and the DAC are the same person.

 

If the above are correct, both the scoutmaster AND the DAC have refused to look at Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook in which he proposes to demonstrate leadership by giving back to scouting and the community because....he hasn't given back enough.

Do I have it right so far?

 

I'm at a loss for how to proceed because this is so different from this unit. Our DAC is not allowed to act in that capacity for his own troop if he is also a Scoutmaster. Actually, considering the immense amount of work the DAC does, I can't see how he COULD also be a SM. Moreover, the council accepts any leader's signature on the approval page for the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook. But even if you had an ASM to sign, the SM (aka DAC) could still stop it in its tracks.

 

Unless someone else in the forums can come up with another approach, I suggest you investigate the idea of joining a Venture unit or perhaps becoming a Lone Scout. Maybe both. If it was my son, I'd do whatever I could to keep the flame from going out in his mind.

One other thing. Write everything down and date it. Note every phone call, every meeting (who was there, what was said, how long did it last?). Jot down every thought and every statement. These things will serve as a way to remember details that you may forget in the future if you don't pursue the final alternative.

 

The final (emphasis on 'final') alternative is...just quit. No threats, no warnings. Just announce to the Committee Chair that your son has decided not to be a member any longer. If they don't ask why, don't offer another word. If they do, inform them in detail. But if you decide to make this move, don't waver. Don't use this as a tactic in some passive aggressive game. Detail or not, go ahead and do it.

 

Your son is 13 now and there will be time for him to reflect on his decision. He may decide that there are better things in life than scouting (and there ARE a lot of great things out there). He may decide, when the pressure and frustration of the moment have been removed, to pick it back up later and try again...maybe with another unit or who knows, maybe with that unit and other leaders. Either way, scouting is not life. If he is as precocious as you describe, he'll do fine in any direction he chooses and it will be scouting's loss. He'll be able to respond with the most devastating response there is...to live a great life without them. In that way he'll also serve as an role model to other boys of how leadership and success can be found outside the scouting experience.