double dipping for merit badge

[NJCubScouter]

That doesn't translate to requirement #11 for Backpacking can't be used to fulfill #5 and/or #6 for Hiking only that these Hiking requirements can't be used for other MB's.

 

Ed, if I am reading the footnote to the Hiking MB requirements correctly, that is exactly what it translates into. It means that you can't use a hike for both Hiking MB and another MB. If I am reading it wrong, someone please show me how, but that is what it seems to say.

 

As for the other example that was used above, using a single public meeting for both Cit. in the Community and Communications, it seems to me that this has been discussed in this forum before, several years ago. There does seem to be a difference of opinion about it. However, there is nothing in the requirements prohibiting it, and some of the boys in our troop (including my son) have done it. It does raise an issue, is it really necessary to have very similar requirements in two different badges, especially when both are required? It might make sense to merge the two requirements, and Cit. in the Community would be the most logical place for it.

[evmori]

Here's the footnote

 

The hikes in requirements 5 and 6 can be used in fulfilling Second Class (2a) and First Class (3) rank requirements, but only if Hiking merit badge requirements 1, 2, 3, and 4 have been completed to the satisfaction of your counselor. The hikes of requirements 5 and 6 cannot be used to fulfill requirements of other merit badges.

 

The way I read the last sentence is requirements 5 & 6 can't be used to fulfill any other MB requirements but nothing states another MB requirement can't be used to fulfill these requirements.

[NJCubScouter]

Ed, I know that somewhere in my youth I learned a way to figure out things like that for sure. It involved p's and q's and little squiggly lines. But since that was too many years ago, the best I can say is that restriction seems to work both ways. The hike can either be used for Hiking MB or for the other MB; not both.

[evmori]

The hike can either be used for Hiking MB or for the other MB; not both.

 

I agree with that NJ, but nothing states requirement #11 completed for Backpacking can't count toward Hiking.

[BrentAllen]

So, according to the double dipping suggested here, when a first year Scout goes to summer camp and completes Swimming MB, he should be credited with completing Canoeing 2, First Aid 3b, Lifesaving 13, Motorboating 2, Rowing 2, Small-Boat Sailing 1b, Water Sports 2, and Whitewater 1b, c. Sure, he's just an 11 year-old kid, but he did it once, so he's got it down forever, right? Give him his blue cards and sign him off, right?

[gilski]

If he is an 11 year old working on all of the merit badges listed at the same summer camp then quite possibly they should. In this communication for my part I was addressing MBs that are being worked on congruently.

 

But even at that do you have every boy in water sports, motor boating, white water, etc. complete first aid requirements or a short

 

1. Show that you know first aid for injuries or illnesses that could occur while participating in water sports, including hypothermia, heat exhaustion, heatstroke, dehydration, sunburn, minor cuts and blisters.

2. Do the following:

A. Identify the conditions that must exist before performing CPR on a person. Explain how such conditions are recognized.

B. Demonstrate proper technique for performing CPR using a training device approved by your counselor.

3. Before doing the following requirements, successfully complete the BSA swimmer test.

 

I teach Motor Boating and Water sports on the same weekend at my home if the boys have first aid, and have passed the swimmers test we dont repeat these even once let alone twice.

 

[Bob White]

Brent regarding your question. The answer is Yes, IF the merit badge counselor chooses to accept the activity.

 

As an example If I were at summer camp and the scout had just passed the swimm test at the pool and went to Canoeing then Swimming MB classes, showing his buddy tag that he just passed the swim test, then yes I would expect he would get credit in both classes for the same test.

 

If however he had not been tested for two years and was coming to me as the canoeing merit badge counselor in his community and said that two years ago he passed the swim test I have the choice of accepting that test or having do a current one. (I would of course have him show me he can pass the test today.)

 

But as the counselor it is my choice.

 

 

[Beavah]

I teach Motor Boating and Water sports on the same weekend at my home if the boys have first aid, and have passed the swimmers test we dont repeat these even once let alone twice.

 

Yah, then you're subtracting from the requirements, which yeh aren't supposed to do.

 

The requirement is that da boys show that they know first aid for all those things to you as merit badge counselor. Your job as MBC is to test each boy individually on those things before you accept they have passed requirement #1.

 

Now, if yeh were working two badges at once on a weekend, no harm if yeh only test once. That might make sense for somethin' like motorboating and water skiing, though that kind of combination is fairly rare. But yeh aren't allowed to accept "oh, well, you have First Class" or "oh, well, yeh have First Aid MB" to fulfill requirement 1. They have to show first aid to you. Which, if yeh think about it, makes perfect sense since CPR and First Aid certs have to be regularly renewed. And I certainly wouldn't take a lad whitewater paddling whom I personally hadn't seen swim.

 

The problem I have with tackin' the first aid requirements onto everything is that often da Motorboatin' MB counselor doesn't know enough himself to be able to teach or evaluate proper first aid. So it seems pretty natural for such a MBC to defer to others and the scout's prior skill. But that's not what's proper.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

"The problem I have with tackin' the first aid requirements onto everything is that often da Motorboatin' MB counselor doesn't know enough himself to be able to teach or evaluate proper first aid. So it seems pretty natural for such a MBC to defer to others and the scout's prior skill. But that's not what's proper."

 

As a boater I would have to take exception to that comment. You have bad boaters just as you will have bad doctors and bad scouters, etc.. But a competent boater, which I would hope a boating merit badge counselor would be, knows the dangers of the type of boat they operate and knows the safety and first aid precautions needed aboard that type of vessel.

 

Which is precisely what that requirement is all about.

 

(by the way the most common non-alcohol related injury aboard a motor boat is the same as aboard a sail boat or canoe.)

 

 

And the role of the counselor is to see that the Scout has MET the requirements. If a Scout shows evidence of completion of the requireent to the counselor and the counselor accepts that evidence then he has "shown that he met the requirement".

 

There is nothing in the BSA Advancement policies or procedures that requires the counselor to witness every activity the scout does in order to apply it to the requirement.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[BrentAllen]

We had this discussion about the CPR/First Aid reqs recently, though not to the extreme position that I first posted. This was a group of Scouter Wilderness First Aid Instructors, most of whom are probably MB counselors as well. One person opined that the reason the CPR requirement was included on all those different MBs was so the skill would be taught and practiced many different times, and the skill would sink in. If MB counselors just signed off because the Scout had completed it elsewhere, or had his Red Cross CPR card, they were missing the point, and the opportunity to ingrain that skill in the Scout. I pretty much agree with his theory. If the Scout insists he knows the skill, and you are working with a group, then have him teach the skill to the others in the group. As Beavah pointed out, the Red Cross requires annual testing and certification to carry their card.

 

I also agree that common sense should prevail where a Scout just completed a requirement for one MB, and it is also required for another MB that week.

[gilski]

I failed to finish the line in my previous post A short review Do I have a CPR practice dummy NO! What I do have, 36 years in boating and amateur competitive water skiing. I havent missed a summer camp in years. If a kid has not performed the BSA swim test I test him right then in my ski lake.

 

We have come a long way from hiking, backpaking, and Citz in the nation. The point of it all when a troop feels its necessarry to add stipulations, requirements and conditions that may or may not impact BSA policy I feel it is necessary to reserch it further. It would be much simpler if our commitee members would actually do their homework before implementing policy.

[Beavah]

And the role of the counselor is to see that the Scout has MET the requirements.

 

Nope.

 

The merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor. - National Executive Board policy statement on Merit Badge Counseling

 

The Boy Scout Learns, the Boy Scout is Tested

 

The scout's merit badge counselor teaches and tests on the requirements for merit badges... scouts must be tested individually, and they must meet all the requirements. - ACP&P #33088

 

Yah, sure, there are some requirements where it makes most sense for a boy to do on his own without the counselor physically present, eh? Attending a meeting or taking a 20 mile hike, eh? Those requirements aren't really testable or judgeable on performance. So we skip to step 3, the Boy Scout is Reviewed, and we review his report on the meeting or hike, and judge his performance through those.

 

But that's not the case for First Aid, eh? A counselor who is doing his duty must test each boy individually and judge each boy on his performance of the requirements. Anything else is subtractin' from the requirements. What's more, anything else is just bein' lazy, and depriving the boy of the full benefit of the counselor's knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest.

 

Camps pose a special case, eh? Can a waterfront staffer rely on his aquatic director's swim check done the prior day? Yah, of course. No point in bein' silly about this stuff. But is a Waterskiing MB counselor who takes some lads out on a boat supposed to rely on a First Class badge or First Aid MB earned 2 years ago to fulfill the CPR requirement? Absolutely not. He is supposed to test and judge performance on each requirement before approvin' the badge.

 

No double-dippin'.

 

Beavah

 

[gilski]

Wise points all of them personally I will need to work harder.

 

You see I learned from what I witnessed helping at Summer camp etc. I have never seen boys individually tested on first aid for canoing, rowing, smallboat sailing, etc. But always in a group setting with questions and answers and never with a CPR device.

 

Good points Beavah thank you.