Any hope of Eagle in this situation?

[Beavah]

Yah, I can't see as how any honest BOR can give a lad a rank without havin' fulfilled the POR requirement with a valid position, eh? Whether backdated or forward-dated. Even if they didn't give him a note in writing (honestly, most don't), that doesn't change the fact the boy didn't meet the requirements. And it isn't the SM's or Committee's job to "get the scout a position", eh? Boys earn a position either by election or through appointment by their peers.

 

Yah, well, in this case maybe selection by da SM . Even then, either the SM is selecting based on ability/what's best for the troop (in which case the boy never demonstrated he was ready to lead), or on trying to fill rank requirements ,in which case, da SM is goin' to be giving positions to those who have a reasonable shot).

 

This lad's quest for Eagle is over, eh? That doesn't mean his Scouting is. I'd encourage the boy to stay involved and keep camping! That's the way to go with these things, instead of turning not making Eagle into a big deal. I reckon the next thing the lad should be encouraged to shoot for is an ASM patch in 5 months. Have him take adult leader training, and start workin' with him as a young adult in the program.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

There'd be nothing dishonest about it. You see the leadership requirement does not require that the project be any specific length of time.

 

The Scoutmaster blew it when he did not recognize that the scout had not completed his leadership requirement back in July during the SM Conference. He could easily have given him a leadership project to do over the next few months that could have resulted in a successful BOR in October and allowing the scout enough time to complete his Eagle requirements.

 

But the Committee also let the scout down by delaying his BOR for 4 months which should NEVER have happened. In addition they did not follow the required procedure when they did not advance him. Had the Scout continued to participate in the troop a strong argument could be made for appealing what happened, crediting the scout for time he could have been working on his leadership responsibilities, correcting the last BOR, and still giving the Scout a chance at Eagle, However the scout choosing to not participate for months works against him in this case.

 

As far as the comment that..."it isn't the SM's or Committee's job to "get the scout a position", eh? Boys earn a position either by election or through appointment by their peers."

 

That simply is not true. The requirement states that the Scoutmaster (and I will remind you that the SM is in charge of advancement) can assign a leadership project to a scout that needs to complete that requirement but has not been elected or selected to one the required positions. He could have, and he should have, but he didn't.

 

And the statement that "(in which case the boy never demonstrated he was ready to lead)" That is a totally manufactured characteristic on your part, you have been given no evidence that suggests that. I'm sorry but to discredit a youth's character without any basis in fact just so that your opinion of the situation will fit is distasteful.

[packsaddle]

Sounds like a lot of water under the bridge here. I wish him luck too...he let himself down and the adults allowed it.

In this unit, the SM tasked me with responsibility for monitoring and mentoring boys once they attain Life rank. From that time forward, after I give them all of the written requirements and forms, I merely ask them every time I see them, "Do we need to talk?". The procrastinators dread that moment. But they all know that ultimately a birthday hangs like a blade over their neck. So far so good. And once in a while, they actually want to talk. And that's just great.

[Hal_Crawford]

I think I have been missing something. Reading the Eagle requirements (http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx) I can't find any reference to the alternative of a Scoutmaster assigned project. Where does this come from?

Hal

[Aquila calva]

From the original post.

 

-The scout will be 18 in April

-He passed his scoutmaster conference last July for his Star rank

 

Even if the scout had past his BOR the same day as his Scoutmaster conference in July, he still wouldn't have enough time as a Boy Scout to get to Eagle rank.

 

Six months as a Star Scout to become Life plus six months as a Life Scout to earn Eagle. That time would put him into June or July of 2009. (This is repeating what Beavah wrote in his first post in this thread.)

 

Unfortunate situation!

 

BW said: He [the Scoutmaster] could easily have given him a leadership project to do over the next few months that could have resulted in a successful BOR in October and allowing the scout enough time to complete his Eagle requirements.

 

He needed 12 months from the date of his Star BOR, not six months. Right? He didnt have enough time to finish Life and Eagle.

 

To put it another way, a Scout needs to pass his Star BOR before (or possibly on) his 17th birthday. He needs at least 12 months as a Scout to earn Eagle.

 

[John-in-KC]

urloony,

 

Not enough information, and it is confused.

 

Please re-state the facts slowly and precisely. We're all over the map, mostly negative, because we see 1) a POR mismatch for the young man for advancement and 2) a tenure mismatch.

 

As to your question on APL, that's a friend and a helper, and a cover when the primary is absent. Other elected and Warrant Offices (or PORs) have specific duties. APL not being on the Eagle list of offices is a tradition, certainly it was true 40 years ago when I was a young Scout!

 

As we say on the range, breathe, relax, aim and squeeze. Commence giving us a solid background, please!

 

JKC

[Aquila calva]

Hal,

 

See Scout Handbook requirements for Star and Life ranks, requirement 5. It is in parentheses.

 

"(or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop)"

[Hal_Crawford]

That clarifies the requirements Star and Life but why doesn't it say that in requirement 4 for Eagle? Is it an error of omission by BSA or is the requirement for Eagle different? How do we know which it is?

[NeilLup]

Hello Hal,

 

The requirement for Eagle is explicitly different. For Eagle, the Scout must hold a position of responsibility. Not to say "trust me" but I have heard this explicitly laid out at National meetings. However, you know it is so because that is what the requirements say.

 

Hello urloony,

 

I can only think of one possibility and even then, your Scout is probably out of luck. If your Scout had previously completed six months of Position of responsibility as a Star Scout, left that job and then was appointed APL then he did meet the requirements and was improperly denied. More frequently than we would like, SMs and BORs interpret advancement to mean that the Scout needs to hold their position of responsibility in the time immediately before the Board of Review. This is incorrect. He can hold it at any time while a Star Scout and it does not need to be consecutive nor all in the same job.

 

But even then, he would need to appeal to the local council and probably to the National Council and likely that appeal would unsuccessful.

 

The reason is this. The requirements have not changed significantly while the boy was a Scout. He is trying to become an Eagle Scout which is something very, very special. The assumption is that he can read and that he cares. I do know of a number of cases where the SM or other Troop adults told the Scout something incorrect which was directly contradicted by the written requirements. The assumption is normally made that the Eagle candidate cares, can read and has to take the primary responsibility for his advancement. If there is some contradiction between what his Troop adults tell him and what the written requirements say, it is assumed that he will clarify it.

 

But as others have said, even if he doesn't make Eagle, he has been a Scout for a long time and deserves plenty of credit for that. He should have a nice ceremony celebrating his time in the Troop and his turning 18. If appropriate, he can be presented his badge as an ASM at that time.

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings!

 

 

Hal, The Scout has not yet attempted a BOR for Eagle. He was "Not Advanced" to the rank of Life Scout. For not having an authorized POR, and/or not completing a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop.

 

IMHO.....

 

I don't have the Advancement Committee policies and Procedures manual if front of me currently. But I've read thru it a few times. After a spirited debate with a friend, I previous thought that only Eagle BOR could appeal a decision to their respective District/Council over the judgement of a BOR. Then my friend demonstrated how this statement is in the manual twice, once under Eagle BOR, and also subordinate to the Tenderfoot thru Life BOR paragraph heading.

 

I guess you can say. Some Scouts blaze a steep trail to Eagle, Eagle Palms, Ranger, Silver and etc. They set the standards for others to follow. While, some other Scouts stumble along the Scouting trail, and the trail to Eagle is wide, paved, and well lit. The Eagle's still make an accomplishments. But some make a tremendous life changing journey, while others just make a journey. (No disrespect intended)

 

The Life Rank advancement calls for serving their troop in a (listed) POR for six months. Not for the immediate most recent six months. (most Star Scouts I've seen, linger for a period in that rank, while achieving merit badges). Did he not serve in any sufficient POR since achieveing Star Scout.

 

A couple of my concerns.

 

How long was the Scout in the Star Rank? and did he complete six months of an approved POR since achieving Star Scout?

 

Also, Did the Scout, in anyway, request an appropriate POR from the SPL and SM? (this would require the Scout to be motiviated enough to review the requirements. Some Scouts do, some Scouts don't.) Essentially, did the Scout honestly request a sufficient POR and was instead assigned APL? As our fellow Scouters have commented. If he did not make the appropriate request for a POR and he was unaware of the Advancement requirements, shame on him.

 

To myself. If either of these two conditions honestly exist. If the Scout was aware of advancement requirements, requested to satisfy these advancement requirements and was denied, then he was wronged. He has a valid basis to Appeal a Decision of the Life BOR to the Council Advancement Chairman. If neither conditions exist. Then I concur with our fellow Scouters, the young Scout had failed himself.

 

Was this Scout aware of the Advancement requirements? Or was he just assigned APL, and he could care less?

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

 

[evmori]

Interesting situation. From what I read, both sides made some errors.

 

The SM shouldn't be assigning these positions. This should be done by the SPL. And the SM should have known the position he assigned was not one that could be used for advancement.

 

The BOR made the correct call & hopefully advised the Scout in writting of their decision & his options. At that point, it is up to the Scout to rectify the error.

 

The Scout should have know what POR's could be used for rank advancement. It's right in his Boy Scout Handbook!

 

It seems certain posters always want to blame the adults when things like this happen. Well, it isn't always their fault.

 

Oh and BTW, a Scoutmaster Conference isn't a pass/fail requirement. It's a"participate in" requirement.

[John-in-KC]

July to October for Conference to BOR? Who overwatches these young people and gives them gentle nudges?

 

SM selecting APL? Patrol leadership is elected in nature?

 

Scout who doesn't know he needs something more than APL to move forward in Scouting?

 

SM who doesn't know the needs of his charges?

 

Yes, Ed and The long-toothed furry critter have the right of it. This young man will age out as a Life Scout. It's time to see if he can be re-engaged as an adult in Scouting.

 

One of the things our district does each year is we retrain Scoutmasters, Advancement Coordinators, and any Scouts who are interested in the trail itself in Life--->Eagle 101. It's structured, but it's not a BSA curriculum I know of...

[frank10]

I assume that the SM wanted this scout the advance and when he assigned him to APL it was his intention to use that as his POR... all the SM had to do was step up and tell the BOR that he had assigned APL to the boy as a leadership project. This would have satisfied both the spirit and the letter of the requirement.

Dragging their feet (all around boy, mom and leaders) had ended his chances.

[gcnphkr]

"it isn't the SM's or Committee's job to "get the scout a position", eh? Boys earn a position either by election or through appointment by their peers."

 

My troop currently has 30 scouts 1st Class through Life. I have an additional 8 Eagle Scouts for a potential leadership pool of 38. Of those 18 currently need a POR (After BORs this will go to 43 and 26). Added up the troop has openings for about 20 PORs plus as many Den Chiefs as I can field. After elections and appointments I still have 6 scouts that need PORs. Some I'm working on getting them connected to Dens as Den Chiefs, others can wait until the next elections, etc. But two are 1st Class Scouts with less than 18 months until they turn 18. Neither has the temperament to be Den Chiefs and they can't blow a bugle. So, you bet I'm giving them opportunities to lead special projects. I can't make them succeed, that is up to them, but it is my responsibility to make sure they have the opportunity.

[NeilLup]

Hello Jet,

 

I'm sure you know this, but there is no limit in the number of Troop Instructors that a Troop can have. So anyone needing a POR can meet that requirement by being a Troop Instructor.