Eagle Project Nightmare

[John-in-KC]

A lot of what Beavah said. It sounds to me like your son has more than enough front-end research to understand

 

- Who his target agency is

- Who his support staff is

 

- What he wants to do for them

 

- Where is the project

 

- Why it's important

 

- When (roughly) will the project be done

 

- How will the project be done.

 

If he can hit those points, he should be good to go.

 

Since I think your husband is the SM, this is one of those times to defer away from him. Let your CC and COR carry the water on this one. Have them sit down for the "friendly cup of coffee" with the District Advancement Chair.

 

I'm not quite sure about your words "District Eagle Adviser" ... if he's the District Advancement Chair... and he's as adamant as you claim ... then your CC/COR may need to say thank you ... and go visit the Council Advancement Chair.

 

Yes, EagleSons' project had a lot of info in it, but part of that was because the supported agencies had given them their "volunteer safety" training packages to include into the pitch. The basics didn't take much more than 5 pages: Everything else was backup stuff.

[momof7scouts]

Wow, this is complicated!

 

The troop eagle adviser also happens to be the DAC. We are just blessed he works with our troop as eagle adviser as well. The supposed benefit to this is that once he approves it, it is guaranteed to be approved all the way up.

 

The signature issue is confusing for me but he had the signatures done in the order they were listed in the packet. He first got the one from the benefiting organization, after all, if they did not want the project done, the rest would be pointless. Then he got the unit committee member and an assistant scout master, since his dad is scout master. Then he submitted it to the Eagle Adviser/DAC. No official work has been done on the project but one of the EA/DAC's first comments was that he needed to list who was willing to commit to help with the project, so he contacted cub scout packs, a brownie troop, and the four martial arts schools he teaches at to get them to commit to help. All of these groups are about to back out of helping because he asked them two months ago and they wanted to do this by their meeting before Christmas at the latest.

 

The EA/DAC sometimes has just tossed it back and said, "More details", then after more details were added, "Not good enough". Every once in a while it is more specific as in the case of the above or when told to make a section on exactly what leadership qualities are being displayed in each step of the project.

 

His father is the scoutmaster, which causes more problems than it solves. If he were just a dad, he could advocate for his son. As the SM, advocating for his son is interpreted by some as undue pressure or abuse of power, which was a major issue in this troop before we joined. Not really sure what happened but had something to do with 13 year old Eagles.

 

My son has been pushing his own project and dealing with it on his own. Y'all are the first people I have addressed this to, and he is unaware I am doing this. I am just looking for a direction to point him. He has met with the EA/DAC on four occasions and has e-mailed the various versions of his packet with changes to him sometimes twice a week trying to nail down this down.

 

He has a checklist for Eagle Scout Project Approval, a sample of what the planning details should include, as well as the actual guidelines provided in the workbook and he has met all of these requirements.

 

The EA/DAC did meet with him before he even submitted this idea on a previous project idea. He had about 30 hours into the planning of the project, meeting with a park ranger to work on it, when he first met this man. He looked at the proposal and said it would never be approved. (We later found out that two scouts from another district are indeed doing the same project.) So, he spent about half an hour discussing other possible projects and what was doable and what was not. When this idea came up, he said it was doable and so my son moved forward on it, not doing the project but planning and writing it up. So, I am assuming it is not the concept but the proposal that is the issue and since he has followed all the guidelines, I was hoping to find somewhere I could direct him to find further explanations so he could get something written up that would satisfy this man. As I read the few Eagle projects I could actually find written up on the web, as well as those I have hands on access to, I found that my son's is more detailed than the vast majority, so there must be something else wrong with it but he is not getting very specific critiques and does not know what to do at this point.

 

I have to be honest, at first it seemed pretty well written and straight-forward to me. As he has continued to add more detail and description, not only has it become ridiculously long, but it is getting confusing to follow, and there is a great deal of repetition. Again, as an example, on the safety issues, he addresses the exact same issues in three different places because he explains them at each stage as they relate, then summarizes at the end of the planning stage, then he was told to have a whole section just discussing safety. There are no power tools, no electricity, no transportation provided, no food provided, and he has two safety trained leaders willing to be on site at the final stage of the project.

 

 

[evmori]

Wait! The Eagle Adviser & DAC are the same person? That shouldn't happen! And I wouldn't consider yourself blessed! This man has no clue what he is doing!

 

I would head on down to the Council Advancement Chair & fill this person in on what is going on & ask for their assistance. The EA/DAC is out of control!

[momof7scouts]

I MADE A MISTAKE!

 

I thought he was the DAC as well because he mentioned he was, but that was in the past. He is now just the Eagle adviser. My husband just explained that in our district, this was not true in the previous district we were in five years ago, the boys do not take their packets to the DAC, the Eagle adviser does. Now when my older son did this five years ago, in a different district, he had to take it and present it himself. This Eagle adviser said he has a 100% first time pass rate and he is not going to take a packet in that he does not think is certain to pass the first time.

[click23]

As other have said, have the CC and the COR contact the DAC and let him know what he is doing is unacceptable, adding requirements, being unscout-like,etc. I would also let the district chair know what is going on.

 

I would immediately contact the CAC, and request a meeting with him, you, your son, and your COR. In this meeting I would request that your sons advancement to eagle be moved out of the districts hands, and into the councils. This way, the council can review his project and handle his EBOR. From the 2008 Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Guidebook "The project must also be reviewed and approved by the district or council advancement committee or their designee to make sure that it meets the stated standards for Eagle Scout service projects before the project is started."

[shortridge]

This Eagle adviser said he has a 100% first time pass rate and he is not going to take a packet in that he does not think is certain to pass the first time.

 

This Eagle adviser needs to get his head screwed on properly, and possibly be replaced. It's not his project; he's not going to lose his job because of a low "pass rate"; and if his ego is so sensitive that he needs to be validated by that type of "achievement," then he might not be a suitable role model for youngsters.

 

Make one last effort to work with this gentleman. Suggest that your son ask for a detailed list, in writing, of what else he needs to do to make the project passable - all at once, not piecemeal - and then do those things. Be sure to get it in writing. That should solve it. If the adviser keeps on throwing up roadblocks, then he's way out of line, and your son has documentation to prove it.

[shortridge]

[utmost apologies for duplicate post. My mouse is messing up.](This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Eagle92]

Why the heck does an "adviser" present for approval the eagle project to the DAC when it is the SCOUT'S responsibility to do that? That is part of the entire process of demonstrating leadership.

 

As for the "100% success rate, who really cares. If a scout needs some adjustments, then the DAC needs to recommend them to be inlcuded in the Life to Eagle workbook.

 

I don't think this gentleman really knows what he is doing, despite being a former DAC. He's not following policy by letting the Scout do the bulk of the work. Instead he seems to be more interested in "success" of the project than the real objective: showing leadership.

 

Just remember that the success or failure of the project is not the issue, but having the scout demonstrate leadership by envisioning the project, getting approval, planning, and executing with volunteers under him. My friend's project which was a complete "failure" since the desired effect didn't occur. With three weekends spent prepping for the project by building tree guards to USDA specs, and three weekends doing the actual reforestation, my friend did a lot of planning and leading with approx 40+ youth and adults. Problem was when he visited the area six month later, every sapling he and his guys planted and protected with guards, was eaten by nutria.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[BulldogBlitz]

he made life at 12? and he's 15 now? 3 years banging his head against this wall? wow....maybe he should add "perserverance" to his scout law.

[Buffalo Skipper]

As a member of the DC (not advancement), I hear about Eagle projects every month (the hour before the meeting is spent with boys going through the project approval process). I rarely hear of a project being "rejected." The process being followed is more or less, to determine the merit of the project. In other words we don't really want an ELSP to carried out which is destined to be rejected because it is inaddequate. Paperwork is reviewed for signatures and such, but the "board" is really evaluating the scope of the proposal. Occasionally, I have heard things like: "be sure to include more pictures before you begin the work" and similar things, but that is neither a rejection of the proposal, nor a requirement to resubmit the paperwork.

 

If this man is a member of your troop committee, consider going to your COR and/or Committee Chair and discussing the matter with them. If he does not represent the CO respectfully, suggest he be replaced. (I know things are not always so cut and dry)

 

We have one young man who recently completed his ELSP. He was planting thousands of plants on a remote beach which had suffered tremendous erosion issues during and after the hurricanes which have pounded our area in recenet years. After his project was "approved," we had two more storms (Fay and Gustav) roll through which actually re-shaped the beach on which the project was to take place. He took the initiative to re-survey the area and move some of the plants to an adjacent beach. Dead trees blocked the path between the two sandbars and he organized to have participants carry over 500 plants wading 20 yards out around debris to get them where they were needed (the area was so remote that the plants had been ferried in on multiple boat loads). I saw this as an example of leadership, rather than a lack of planning or poor organization.

 

It angers me to hear of so called "leaders" who spend so much effort preventing scouts from leading. Shame on him, and good luck removing this obstacle from all good scouts.

 

[jtswestark]

Yep, this needs to be taken up the ladder.

As a parent or leader, I wouldn't hesitate to bring this right into the Council's Office. This is outright wrong in so many ways, even having the SM Dad pointing it out shouldn't be any issue once someone with half a brain sees what is going on.

Don't let another day go by. Get some attention on this as soon as you can.

 

JTS

[momof7scouts]

Thank all of you for your advice. I am going to have him submit the packet one more time, asking for specifics, in writing, on what else he needs to do. Then, if son two makes requested changes and is still rejected, SM Dad can take it up further channels.

We just don't want to make long term enemies for the sake of sons three (another life), four (a first class) and five (a webelos II).

[Beavah]

Yah, it's like kudzu. 100% pass rate, bah!

 

Still, it should be CC or COR who takes up this task, not SM dad. This belongs to the CC because it's the Committee's approval of the boy's project which is being questioned, eh? CC should rightly defend the approval decision which they made.

 

Yah, and it's da COR's task because as a voting member of the district committee he/she is tasked with participating in the oversight and approval of district positions, eh? Odds are that approval votes on the slate includin' DAC are comin' up this month.

 

B

 

[mmmmontano]

What is it with some adults? 25 page proposal @#$%&*? As long as it has the Who,What,Where,When and Why sounds like someone is adding to the requirements.

 

This reminds me of my sons project. His eagle advisor completely rejected his proposal from the beginning. Told him it would never be approved. Not big enough,not enough hours,can't use non-scouts,can't use power tools,welders etc. A lot of the older boys in the Troop told my son that's the reason why they will never Eagle. He basically tried to micromanage my sons project.

 

As his dad,ASM for his current Troop and Scoutmaster from a Troop in California I knew he had a very good project that benefited his high school . When he came home from being rejected I advised him that I could not get involved as this was his project not mine. It turned out to be a valuable lesson for him. Long story short he persevered.

 

My advise to you is let your son resolve this problem. If phone calls need to be made , he needs to make them not mom or dad.

He should talk to the DAC and ask him "Mr DAC I need some advice on my proposal can you help me?" and then show him what he has so far. Bypass this advisor person.

 

All it takes is one well meaning adult to mess it up.

 

Good luck

 

M Montano

 

 

[Eagle92]

"can't use non-Scouts" what the heck? Where is that in the project workbook? I had one Eagle who said since his church's youth group is going to benefit from the project, they should do the bulk of the work. With the exception of one or two scouts in the troop not members of his troop, everyone else was a member of the church group, and that included scouts from our troop,3 or 4 neighboring troops, and non-scouts.