Eagle Project Nightmare

[momof7scouts]

I have one son who made Eagle five years ago. I have a second son working on it now. Two months ago he came up with the initial idea and asked the Eagle adviser for the ok to go ahead, which was given.

He now has about forty pages to his project book, still unapproved, and has put in 40 hours working on it at this point.

Initially, it was a simple explanation, that became more and more detailed. Comparing it to my first son's project, only five years ago, son number two has written a college level business proposal. Son number one's proposal was approved first time around at each step. Son number two got all the signatures, including from the benefiting organization, only to have the adviser tell him that even though the scope of the project is not changing, just the details, none of the signatures count. The before picture was even rejected because it was not of an empty box in the lobby of the homeless shelter but of the shelter itself.

First he was told he needed more details. Then information needed to be organized differently. Then he needed to include more on safety issues, no tools or electricity are being used, no group transportation, so not sure what to address other than that not using these. Then he used the word "I" too many times. Then, he needed not just to estimate the number of people and hours but total man hours. Now, it is so long, he needs a separate section explaining how he is demonstrating leadership at each stage. He was actually told the first of October that he probably would not get it approved until January or later!

Here are some of the problems:

#1 He was told to actually list the agencies/organizations who would commit to helping with the project though he could not let them actually help yet. He did this, enlisting aid from cub scouts, brownies, and others. Now these groups, who planned on doing this as a Christmas service project, are telling him if he cannot get it approved before the end of November, they are going to back out.

#2 The purpose of the project is to provide backpacks filled with winter necessities for the homeless. The purpose will be moot if he cannot start until January or February. They will be needing swimsuits not sleeping bags.

#3 He is 15 years old and getting discouraged. After the last rejection, he tossed the project on the table and said, "This is hopeless, I will never make Eagle."

#4 He is an honor student, makes A's in English, and is a member of the National Honor Society, so he is not a slacker in the writing department. How in the world do others get through this?

My husband is the scout master and is about to lose his cool on this. He asked the last few scouts who made Eagle what the most memorable part of the project was and all said the nightmare of dealing with project approval! This is just sad that the leadership is doing this to the scouts. Fewer and fewer boys are even attempting to earn the award and many quit once their project is rejected a few times.

Is there any appeal process for this? My son can't even get to district with his project!

Thank you

 

[jtswestark]

This is a troop issue then? I agree, this is much more than Ive tasked any of my Eagle candidates for in their proposal stage. Get some additional advice here, your CC should be made aware of this. Your district advancement committee can assist, but get your CC involved first. Any other reasons going on here - ie: is it possible there are thoughts that your son isn't ready for his project yet, some stalling going on? Regardless, this isn't proper so deal with these issus first. Is it possible to ask for another advisor?

Get some help here within your unit first, this sounds way over the top to me.

 

Jack

 

[Eagle92]

Ok is this from the District Adv. Chairman (DAC), or the Council Adv. Chair (CAC)? If the DAC, then I would have ALL the recent Eagles, as well as your son complain to the CAC about this process that, if I am not mistaken and someone please correct me if I am wrong and the policy has changed, is the DAC micromanaging. I don't have a copy of the Advancement book in front of me, but if I remember correctly once it's approved and the DAC signs off,then it's approved and the DAC doesn't have much input until the EBOR. Now if the DAC didn't sign off initially, then there a problem.

 

Now if the CAC is causing the problem, see if your unit has a copy of the current advancement guidelines

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=BOOKS_LIT&c3=LDRS_TRAINING&c4=&lv=3&item=33088 and get your COR to ask why he is adding on requirements to the service project. Using the book to support his argument.

 

Sorry to ramble on, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I had my project approved and completed within 6 months of getting Life. When I go for my EBOR 4 years later, the DAC tried to fail my EBOR since he didn't approve my project. I had to tell him that once it was approved by a DAC, the project was approved and that nothing states the current DAC has to approve the project, only that the paperwork is approved, completed, and turned in with the application.

 

Edited for clarification, spelling, and for first response.

 

If the adviser is a troop leader, then he needs to back off since this is the Scout's responsibility. Further once the project is approved by the DAC, then it's full steam ahead with the scout being responsible. Adults may offer advice, but the Scout doesn't need to take it. The Adviser has no right saying the signatures are no longer valid.

 

My advice is to have the scout make multiple copies of the project workbook. BE Prepared.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[momof7scouts]

He is the district eagle adviser and the eagle adviser to the troop. There is no maturity issue with my son. He made life scout at 12. He has been a patrol leader, asst. patrol leader, ASPL, and Den Chief. He is a third degree black belt who has been teaching martial arts since he was 11. He also is a teacher's aide, teaching PE to 1st graders.

He has followed the guidelines for the project plan according to what the BSA has written. It is hard to find examples of approved projects to see if there is something he is missing. Comparing his to his brother's there is not. We tried to use the only other district eagle adviser but she said since he started the project with the other one, he needed to finish it with him.

 

[NeilLup]

Occasionally, one runs across someone who believes that they are Horatius at the Bridge protecting the purity of the Eagle project and the Eagle process. It can be really unfortunate.

 

There may be no easy answer but what I would be tempted to do is the following:

 

Prepare a presentation package with the work that your son has done, the proposals that he has written, problems he has faced, etc. Ask for a meeting with your council's Scout Executive to discuss your son getting turned off to Scouting as a result of the Eagle process. (Make sure that your son concurs with your doing this.) Present the information. Indicate that you totally concur with your son meeting the requirements and that you want him to meet them and he wants to meet them. However, make your case that the process has stopped being fun and stopped building citizenship, character and fitness and instead has become painful and discouraging for your son. Indicate that the delays in the process may have made the project undoable.

 

Ask what your son can do to cut through the red tape and get onto doing the project. Point out the difference between your first son several years ago and your son now.

 

You may not have any luck but there is a good chance that your SE doesn't realize the way that this Eagle adviser is serving as a roadblock. Your SE may be able to help you.

[Beavah]

Yah, I've seen this a few times, eh? Had to prune da bush of bureaucracy myself on a bunch of occasions. Or prune da people causin' it. Don't know why, but da Eagle "process" stuff grows like kudzu.

 

For all that, I'm not fond of trotting off to the Scout Executive. This is a volunteer matter, not a council business matter, eh?

 

It is something the SM, CC, or COR should raise respectfully directly with the DAC, then district chair and council advancement committee. Quietly, on the side. Then more firmly if needed.

 

In the meantime, though, I'd let your son work the process, eh? If he's a 15 year old honor student with all those other things under his belt, he can work this problem. Good lesson for him that not everything comes easily, and bureaucracy's a bummer. Sometimes even really bright, active lads get discouraged, and have to work extra hard to overcome obstacles.

 

Da real reason to fix this is so the process doesn't wipe out other lads who do not have your son's talents or supports.

 

Yah, and while criticizing others we should always look to ourselves as well, eh? A good thing to look at in your unit is whether in the course of planning outings the boys are expected to do things similar to the plans for an Eagle project. Troops do have to come part way to meet the district. Doin' a safety plan, budget, work plan, duty roster, getting approval, etc. should be part of the youth leaders' daily lives in a troop.

 

Beavah

 

[momof7scouts]

Even a 15 year old honor student is no match for a very large, very intimidating, 60 year old man who tosses his packet back at him and says, "Nope, not good enough." with little in the area of explanation.

It is a scout led troop, even when they screw up and don't plan correctly, they suck it up. Like not planning for enough food on a camping trip, got stuck with peanut butter and bread from the cracker barrel for the rest of the camp out.

The point is that the project is well planned, covers everything required according to all BSA guidelines we could find, and it is still being rejected with comments about using the pronoun "I" too much, adding extra sections not listed in the guidelines such as one on how he shows leadership in each stage of the project. Each stage lists exactly what he is doing and who he is supervising/training etc. already. He is on his sixth version of the packet. It is currently 25 pages long and will be longer when he adds this next section to it.

[evmori]

It really stinks when someone like this pulls this kinda crap! This is an Eagle Project not a PhD thesis! There is no reason for this. It's time to escalate this to the next level & get your son's project approved! Get your Scoutmaster to help out.

[Gunny2862]

Okay, If the DAC is literally flopping the packet back at him and saying it isn't good enough then he needs to provide a list of deficiencies that the Scout can then go work on.

 

Grrr, I'm a little disgusted(editing myself) with this individual.

It isn't a guessing game, the Scout simply needs to follow the guidelines in place for an Eagle project. By not providing the information showing where the shortcomings are or showing which guidelines are in error this adult IS adding to the requirements.

It may be that he see's himself as putting in roadblocks to test the Scouts Character - this IS NOT his job. Completing the task as written with Scout Spirit and Leadership in play are the Scouts job. Evaluating the work and Scout Spirit are the Scoutmasters job. But no where in the program is building in stumbling blocks part of the program.

 

If the DAC won't provide the Scout with a list of deficiencies in the project, take that to the CC, COR, and CAC. and see what they have to say, they should (hopefully) at least back you in elevating this.Garnering support from past Eagles who have nothing to lose who found the same problem could be very helpful. By not providing this necessary feedback he IS adding to the requirements - in the very least by requiring that the Scout read his mind.

[Beavah]

Even a 15 year old honor student is no match for a very large, very intimidating, 60 year old man who tosses his packet back at him and says, "Nope, not good enough." with little in the area of explanation.

 

Yah, da thing of it is, a 15 year old honor student is a match for such an individual.

 

But only if you believe in him.

 

Let your CC and COR work the problem respectfully but firmly with the district/council. This kudzu does need to be trimmed, I agree. Let your son work the problem of his Eagle project respectfully, actively, and firmly with da individual. He's old enough and talented enough he doesn't need you snowplowing for him, eh? But he does need your calm confidence in him and his abilities, and your encouragement.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Not that what is being done is correct, because it certainly doesnt seem so, however, the Eagle application does have a space now to list the total man hours spent on the Eagle Project, so getting the scout to think in terms of man hours is a good thing.

 

The rest of the "Stump-the Chump" game is pretty poor however

[NeilLup]

Hello Beavah,

 

I understand your comments about not getting the Scout Executive involved. My reason for suggesting the SE was that when I have seen situations like this, and I have, not uncommonly, the troll involved is one of the good old boys and if you go to the volunteer structure, you risk it being that you are complaining to one of this guy's buddies and making things worse.

 

This guy may be one of those people who believes that every Eagle should be 17 years old and if somebody younger comes along, he'll keep throwing up roadblocks until the kid gets older.

 

As I believe I suggested in my earlier post, there is no one right answer as the best approach can depend upon the exact personalities and formal and informal leadership structure of your district and council. So don't be surprised if you get many different suggestions on this forum some of which seem almost contradictory. All of us are right and none of us are completely right. You and your son need to scope out what will work best in your specific local situation. It may take a little doing.

 

It is certainly possible that there will be someone in the volunteer leadership structure of your council who can help you. I know that in my council, advancement is one of my areas of responsibility and if I learned of something like this, I'd see what I could do to set things right.

 

I know of a council that had to dismiss a leader from serving on Eagle Boards, etc. because he was this way. It ended up costing the council a massive sum of money as this man was potentially a multi-million dollar giver and quit Scouting as a result of being dismissed. I don't believe that anyone ever told the council "thank you."

[Eagle92]

OK I need to modify some things because the other posters are correct. The Scout should talk to the adviser on this matter first. I suggest he review the Life to Eagle workbook, or whatever it's called today, and if possible a copy of the advancement guidelines I recommended earlier. Also letters about the process from current eagles help as well. Warning; sometimes adults do not take seriously scouts, or even young adult leaders, so he should be prepared to be dismissed. Happened in my case discussed previously. If that happens, then the the Scout write a certified letter to the District Chairman and CAC discussing the problem. Again letters of support from current eagles helps.

 

If he is dismissed again by the CAC, then have the COR get involved since he is a district committee member and council exec. board member, even if he knows it or not.

 

Yes I had the DAC dismiss my objections to failing me on my EBOR because he didn't approve my project. Fortunately for me the previous DAC, the one who did approve my project was on the board. After discussing the reasons for failing me, the entire EBOR sent me out of the room for further discussions amongst themselves. The DAC was NOT happy as I did pass.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[scoutldr]

"Two months ago he came up with the initial idea and asked the Eagle adviser for the ok to go ahead, which was given. He now has about forty pages to his project book, still unapproved, and has put in 40 hours working on it at this point."

 

I'm a little confused. In our council, the Scout prepares the "plan" which is signed off by the District Representative (DAC), the SM and the beneficiary of the project. No work can commence until the signatures are on "the plan". The DAC then does NOT see the project again until the EBOR (if he's on the Board, which in our council, he is not).

 

So, either "the Plan" was "approved" by District, or not. If he was given the "go ahead" to begin work, he should have a signature in the workbook, and he's good to go. The beneficiary of the project, the SM and the EBOR are the only ones who get a vote on the execution of the plan.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

[evmori]

After re-reading the initial post, am I correct in my understanding that the Eagle Adviser is the moron who is requiring all this junk? If so, does this person think it's his project?

 

Since you husband is the Scoutmaster, I think it's time to take what your son has done to date, your son & go meet with the DAC! Explain what is going on & get this thing rolling! This "Adviser" is exactly the kind of person who give Scouting a bad name!