eagle question, of a legal nature

[fishbelly]

a local troop has a scout who require constant supervison by a parent.

The incident ended in legal action against the Scout resulting the supervison by parent.

While on a co ed school activity there was another incident.

Now if there had been the one incident I would not be posting.

He will soon be working on Eagle and I have been asked how he can become a eagle scout with such disregard for the scout law not to mention the legal system.

 

How can this be handleed best and at what level.

 

Thank You

[shortridge]

If you're looking for advice of a legal nature, consult a lawyer.

 

If you're looking for advice on BSA rules and regs, you need to provide a bit more information to let folks help you. The terms "incident" and "legal action" could mean anything under the sun.

[evmori]

I would agree with shortridge. More info is needed.

[emb021]

And this is probably an issue better handled by your council office, then by us.

[Bob White]

If your intention is to take legal action then you should be consulting lawyers and not scouters shouldn't you?

 

If your intention is to deal with this as a scouting matter, and if this is taking place in the unit where you are the COR, you have a variety of actions you can take. including removing the boy from unit membership based on his repeated bad behavior.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Yah, fishbelly, not enough information, eh?

 

All I can guess from your post is that there's a lad who has had repeated brushes with da law, perhaps involving inappropriate actions with young women?

 

At a first cut, this is da unit's problem, eh? Dependin' on the nature of the crimes and the mission of the CO, I can see the unit either being a safe haven and anchor for the lad as he works through his other problems, or I can see it bein' reasonable for the unit to drop his membership. Just depends.

 

For me, struggles with personal issues like minor alcohol or drug use, or an isolated incidence of poor judgment like petty theft or small-scale vandalism (spray paintin' your school's logo on a rival high school sign), are things a strong unit can help a lad with, but a weak unit probably can't. For me, crimes like assault, battery, possession with intent to sell, etc. are ones where da better lesson for all involved is to remove the scout.

 

Sounds like you are anticipatin' havin' to deal with this as a district or council advancement committee when it hits you as an EBOR. Those are tough, eh? A unit is recommending the lad, but one of the jobs of the council review is to protect the reputation of Scouting in awarding its highest award. If a lad has plead guilty or been convicted of a fairly recent crime that goes to character, and yeh have definitive information about that as opposed to gossip, I think it should be a substantial part of da BOR discussion, eh? And quite possibly a reason to say "no," after yeh review all the information on the lad.

 

Far better lesson for this boy and all the boys if the unit were to deal with it thoughtfully and well, eh? And a strong unit should keep da district and council apprised of its thinkin' so there are no surprises.

 

Beavah

 

[Eamonn]

fishbelly from Lick skillet!

I think that sounds wonderful.

 

Like the other members have said we are not lawyers or the police.

 

One thing I'm trying to get better at is forgiveness.

I was very much the kind of fellow that if you crossed me, I wanted my pound of flesh.

I work with convicted criminals, some have done some real nasty stuff.

They are paying for their crime by being incarcerated.Many are also making some kind of financial retribution as well.

These are adults, but being as the place I work is called a Correctional Institution, the hope is that once thy have served their time and get out they will do right.

In the bible we have the parable of the Prodigal Son.

I have no idea how many chances we need to give or allow a young man to do his best to turn around and do his best to live by the Scout Oath and Law?

I would hope lots and lots.

Sure we need to be firm, fair and consistent when we work with and for young people.

But I firmly believe that 99.9% of all kids will benefit more from spending time with caring adults who set a good example and are true leaders than kids who are tossed out of Scouting and left to face whatever consequences are there.

I of course don't know this Lad.

I have no idea what he may or may not have done.

If he is just starting to work on his Eagle Scout rank? I feel that there is a lot of time for him to turn himself around and earn the rank.

The final approval will come from his SM and the Eagle Scout BOR. These people might see what he has done and could deny him the rank. Or they might see how much he has tried too change for the better and see a Lad who really is "Doing his best to do his duty to...."

Lose the number of the lawyer, talk to the lad, tell him what is what. Don't sugar coat it!! But be willing to stand by him and offer him all the help, advise and if needed a kick in the pants.

I'll bet in 25 years time he will come back and thank you.

Eamonn.

[scoutldr]

What I like to do is go back and read the original question and then try to answer that. Fishbelly is not calling a lawyer...he wants to know how a scout who has been in trouble with the law make Eagle. How can such a scout make Eagle? The SM has to decide whether to sign of on "Scout Spirit" and have (not "pass") a Scoutmaster Conference. Then he has to decide whether the requirements were met and if so, recommend him to the Troop Committee for a Board of Review. The troop committee chairman then decides whether to sign the Eagle Scout application. Whether the Eagle Board is a Council Board or a Troop Board with a District Rep present, the Board then interviews the scout and deliberates based on the information they know to be true, and information they may glean from the Letters of Recommendation, if submitted. The vote to confer the Eagle is usually by consensus, but the decision must be unanimous. If the decision is to grant the Eagle, he is an Eagle Scout. If the decision is to deny, the scout has a right to appeal to the next level.

 

So how can such a scout make Eagle? That's the process. It's based on humans making subjective judgments (not just counting the merit badges and assessing the Leadership Project). Sometimes they are not willing to make the hard decision and disappoint the scout. Sometimes they do, and are overturned on appeal (I have experience with that one).(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Gunny2862]

Good post scoutldr!

 

And agree with all of the rest, there isn't enough info for us to advise you but what you have now is a character issue. Can/will this Scout mend his behavior and attitudes? That is the key question. If he can then on the trail he goes - and then support your SM as he makes this judgment call on Scout Spirit.

If he can't then he may be best served by separating him from the Troop - remembering that if that wakes him up and he then makes the required changes(which you should spell out before separating him) then the trail should remain open before but again support your Scoutmaster as he works with the youth in question.

[Crew21_Adv]

fishbelly and Fellow Scouters,

 

 

I too have scratched my head at a few Eagle Scout candidates. Usually it was for the Scout just showing up to the project and EBOR, while the troops took care of everything else. On rare occasion I've known few troops to tell the Council Advancement Committee Chair, that they already conducted a project and held an EBOR and didn't know that there were required signatures (or forms).

 

Not that these were bad youth, just that they merely showed up. While their troops did a disservice to them.

 

So, fishbelly, I can empathize, sometimes with more (or sometimes with less) information, a Scouter may ask, "how can this happen?".

 

 

But regarding this Scout in your posting that made a few bad decisions and others like him.

 

Similar to our other forum members, probably due to privacy, we do not have all the details; as well as, our forum is not a legal forum, but more of a common Scouting practices forum.

 

Concur, Scoutldr stated it correctly. The Scoutmaster determines that the Scout demonstrates Scout Spirit and a sanctioned Eagle Board of Review determines that a Scout sufficiently warrants the rank of Eagle Scout.

 

Please allow me to throw out a few thoughts.

 

Can a youth be redeemed and pay a debt to society and the community, for some errors in judgment? I would hope so. A handful of adults probably took the "school of hard knocks" to become doctors, lawyers, judges, mayors, teachers, maybe even Scoutmasters and etc. Hopefully, an extremely small handful of adult Eagle Scouts have ever served time for an error in judgment, but the possibility exist.

 

To prevent youth from making bad moral decisions and sometimes to help redeem them Scouting has used Scoutreach. Scoutreach has a few avenues (such as rural Scouting) but creating a Juvenile Diversion Program is one of the methods to preventing/redeeming youth.

 

Here are just a few quick links as proof, which regard youth and juvenile development (and sometimes correction).

http://www.scoutreachbsa.org/resources/11-308/

http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/9903/a-rcho.html

http://www.sltrib.com/midvalley/ci_10556296

 

So back to the Topic by fishbelly. How he can become a Eagle Scout... I would answer by redeeming himself and thru the assistance of his family, Scoutmaster, the Troop and Troop Committee (as Scoutldr stated).

 

It is possible, and hopefully, the Scout will grow to become a good citizen that will make good moral decisions.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[NeilLup]

Hello Fishbelly,

 

To respond to your question and, hopefully, add to Scoutldr's excellent answer:

 

How can that boy make Eagle Scout? If he meets the requirements, he becomes an Eagle Scout.

 

To answer the question that you did not ask:

 

What would keep him from making Eagle Scout?

 

If, for some reason, he does not meet the requirements, he would not become an Eagle Scout.

 

But as many, many threads have outlined, if you expect some kind of SWAT team to come down from the National Council at the Eagle Board of Review and deny the boy his Eagle Scout award, I fear you will be very disappointed. If he is going to be deemed not to meet the requirements, he needs to be informed of this sooner rather than later, told why and told what he needs to do in order to meet the requirements. This can be done in the context of a Scoutmaster's Conference or a "non-advancing" Board of Review. If his character is deemed not appropriate to be an Eagle Scout, then that needs to be positioned in terms of the Eagle Scout requirements (likely Scout Spirit) and what he would need to do to demonstrate acceptable Scout Spirit clearly outlined.

 

If the Scout completes all other requirements and so chooses, he can request a Scoutmaster Conference and Board of Review and this request will be granted. The Board will consider all factors including the information provided by the unit on why the Scout did not meet one or more of the requirements. It is at that point that the homework done and substantiation provided by the unit may well make the key difference. The Board of Review will give the benefit of the doubt to the Scout.

[Rooster7]

For the moment, Im going to assume the kid did something noteworthy enough to be brought up at an Eagle BOR (or at some other point in the process). I believe in consequences for ones behavior good and bad. However, I find this scenario to be a bit odd. You have a kid actively involved in Scouting who wants to achieve the rank of Eagle. How bad can he be?

 

Is there no hope to turn this kid around and help him become an Eagle that is, to become someone worthy of the award, as opposed to someone gaining a badge or pin for his trophy case? Isnt this an opportunity to help the kid see what the award is about, and to help him make changes so he can proudly wear the badge one day? Or are we more concerned about the integrity of the badge than the character of the boy?

 

Normally, Im all about justice. I dont believe in parole. I think the three-time loser law is an excellent concept and should be adopted by all states. Having said that, Im just saying Perhaps the troop should consider how to help the boy become worthy of the badge - as opposed to calculating a way to thwart his effort.