ugh, advancement rant

[Lisabob]

Reading this forum for a few years and having watched my son's troop and other local troops in action over that same time, I've come to the conclusion that the way we do advancement in the BSA these days is really not that hot.

 

At least at the T-2-1 ranks there are tangible measures and skill sets to be accomplished, though I am doubtful about the degree to which some scouts actually master the skills in question. (Master? Heck, I'm doubtful that some have even a passing acquaintance. But at least there are some specific requirements that set out expectations of what a T-2-1 scout can do.)

 

The Eagle rank at least has a fairly thorough and meaningful BOR process attached to it, and often outsider involvement (district) so that it is less likely for a troop to just hand out Eagle badges like Halloween candy.

 

But where I really see problems is in the Star/Life ranks. The requirements are vague, subject to all kinds of personal bias and interpretation, they're not that meaningful or exciting to many boys who see them as hoops to jump through, and the temptation appears to be to let practically any boy with a pulse through, only to try and "hold up the bar" for Eagle later on. This is unfair to all involved and causes the kinds of intra-troop fights among adults that we hear about frequently on this board. It can also result in souring other boys on the whole experience of scouting, and of rank advancement as a meaningful method in particular.

 

SMs seem to feel they have to sign off if the boy has jumped through the hoops, regardless of whether a boy exhibits what we'd think of as scoutlike behavior and character, because to do otherwise opens one up to second guessing by higher-ups who are unlikely to back the SM's judgment. And BORs are frequently cowed into going along even against the better judgment of some members. To do otherwise opens individuals up to charges of personal bias and can tear an otherwise reasonably good troop to shreds. Because the adults involved have often known each other (and each other's kids) for years, all through Cub Scouts, it can be hard to set aside old grievances too.

 

Case in point: Recently I watched a young man be awarded his Life rank. I've known this fellow and his family since he was 7. He can be a nice kid sometimes (when he knows adults other than parents are watching), but he has learned to be a bully and a manipulator too. Far from showing scout spirit, I would argue he is exactly what scouts are supposed to teach kids NOT to be (self-centered brats, out to get what's theirs) He learned this from his parents. Just in the last 6 months he's been caught breaking laws, damaging other people's property, pounding spikes into trees, fighting with other scouts, repeatedly using foul language in addressing other scouts, and causing so many problems in his patrol (of which he was PL, at least on paper - he didn't do most of the actual job) that the patrol was disbanded.

 

Why was he awarded Life? As far as I can tell, because nobody was willing to stand up to his mother. Attempts to call this child on his behavior inevitably result in screaming, ranting, raging encounters with her. I know because I've been on the receiving end myself on occasion. Nothing is ever her child's fault - it is always someone else, no matter how implausible. And any adult who dares to speak up is accused of holding a grudge against her/her kid. The great majority of adult leaders in the troop don't trust this boy (or mom) and know he's a problem scout, not a leader and not a role model. Yet he was awarded Life at a recent CoH. The SM announced that this boy was just a few inches away from Eagle. I had to bite my tongue hard.

 

This boy was recently appointed to a POR for the next 6 months so he can have Eagle. His POR? Librarian.

 

My kid, meanwhile, wonders what value any rank holds, when a boy who behaves like this is granted the award. My standard response (the value of awards is in the heart of the recipient) did little to make him feel better. He noted that out in the wider world, Life and Eagle are understood to have meaning, and that people will treat this boy as if he were worthy of respect just by virtue of having attained those ranks (however he got there). He feels let down by adults he trusted to show better judgment than this too.

 

This boy will get his Eagle and then I think he'll be gone. My son jokingly asked if maybe we couldn't just give him Life and Eagle at the same time to have done with it, since many of the other boys in the troop dislike him and would be happy for him to leave. But this boy is typical, in some ways, of how the advancement method breaks down at Star and Life ranks, and how easy it is for troops to misuse this method of scouting. It happens all the time (as seen reading through threads on this board) and there doesn't seem to be much chance of making large improvements within the current framework.

 

So: my solution? Let's just get rid of star and life ranks altogether. Go straight from 1st Cl to Eagle. Make sure there are checks in place to ensure that a boy who is awarded Eagle has actually earned it. Either that, or just openly allow scouts to buy Eagle as an alternative to having to earn it.

 

Color me cynical today.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I prettmuchgeewith you, but if adults dont follow the current rules, what assures they will follow new ones?

[John-in-KC]

You're not the only cynic, Lisa. The Cub Scout motto (Do your best) is a fine one for us when we grown-ups implement the program. When we consistently allow happenings as you describe, the ability of Scouting to meet the Aims diminishes...quickly.

 

All you and I can do is our very best at what we do

 

 

[Beavah]

[applause]

 

I reckon that was a good advancement rant. We all need to get it out of our system sometimes. There are days when I think it'd be best if we just eliminated the advancement method, it gets so dysfunctional in some troops and camps.

 

Yah, I think da hardest thing for some adults to understand is that advancement is a game which serves a bigger purpose. It isn't its own purpose, eh? And da bigger purpose isn't to turn every youth and adult in da program into amateur attorneys squabblin' over what da meaning of "is" is. Over da years, I've come to immediately think less of any scouter or parent who comes to me waivin' requirement 3(a)(2) with some argument. Kinda like da obnoxious parents or scouters one often sees at Pinewood Derbies.

 

Me, I always tell units that Star and Life are the spots to slow the train and work on character and leadership. Star for character, Life for leadership. Yeh shouldn't approve a Life Scout unless everyone fully expects the lad will deserve Eagle. Not fair to change da rules on a boy at the last step.

 

I think nationally we've mostly given up, though, and I really can sympathize with lads like Lisabob's son who feel da ranks in some places don't have any meaning anymore. From what I hear from a friend, college admissions offices are comin' to realize it too, eh? Eagle in a lot of places has become a middle school award or a "seat time" award, and as such really don't have any value for college admissions. A colleague of mine won't hire any more Eagle scouts as law firm interns because he's been burned badly by da last few. Expect everything to be handed to 'em.

 

I think where da rubber meets da road is that when we put forth a lad to be honored with a high award (Life, Eagle), to be held up to da community and applauded by all and sundry, he has to deserve it. We have to honestly believe he's a lad who is worthy of being held up to other boys and the community at large as one of our best.

 

Anything else, includin' lawyering da meaning of Scout Spirit or "don't add to requirements" or whatnot is just bein' dishonest.

 

Beavah

 

[Gunny2862]

I hear you too, Loud and clear.

 

The only way this works is if the individual Troops do the work. Because National will not get involved in the character side and will only look at what we(and the Scouts parents) say the Scout has done.

 

I hold the line in my zone. (Or at least am trying - and do better as I learn more.)

The way I see it it all starts early, even in the Crossover or New Join level (Scout), with special attention at the T-2-1 levels that you(I) WILL NOT sign off on unearned work. The Scout needs to find out EARLY that there is a Quality component, "No Billy, that isn't quite a square knot, the name for what you have tied is a Thieves knot. Let's try it again." "No Billy, while you have tied an ankle brace there isn't any support for the ankle, it has to be TIGHT to provide the support, Let's try it again."

It's the understanding that there are standards and that the Troop WON'T raise the bar but WILL hold to the standard ALL the way through.

[Nike]

When I first looked at the Scout book a few years ago, I was surprised that Star and Eagle didn't have more strenuous requirements. It seems to me that a boy should be improving on his Scout skills learned in T21. It also seems fair that a Scout going for Star or Life should be asked to exhibit those skills on the fly at any time afterwards. A pop quiz if you will.

 

I know the BOR isn't to retest, but I certainly don't let those Star and Life kids slide through. If a kid isn't ready to step up and be a contributor to the troop at Star, he doesn't get my vote. Then again, I haven't had any absolutely rotten kids come before me, either.

[evmori]

Yeah Lisa! I fear parents today are raising their kids to feel entitled to everything they want without actually having to earn it! Sad and scary!

[GaHillBilly]

Well, I won't join the rant, not because I don't agree, but because I've already ranted more than my share on this topic.

 

More than that, things are looking up in my son's troop right now. So far, one step has followed another down a path to provide every Scout the opportunity to legitimately make FC by May . . . and actually possess the requisite skills at that point. Things may get derailed tomorrow (or more to the point, tonight!), but -- thank God, and I mean that! -- more progress has been made than I had reason to hope for.

 

So, rather than rant, I'll share what's in the back of my mind to bring up next.

 

AFAIK, neither the boys NOR the parents NOR even some of the Scouters have had any training in the concept of rank as a "means", rather than an "end". Most of the Scouters I have met implicitly behave as though the goal of Scouting is Eagle rank.

 

Why? They dunno, as far as I can tell.

 

So, my next hope is to begin treating the elements of the "law" as a "skill" (not because that's the most felicitous description, but because it's one that's more likely to be accepted) and to springboard off that concept to the process of "teaching those skills"! I'm hoping we can spend 1 skill session per month on an element of the "Law"* and on the real purpose of Scouting. (Which is why I posted the purpose thread in "Issues & ")

 

Can I 'sell' it? Dunno. Will it work? Dunno. But I've got a plan, and I've got a prayer, and it sure seems we've been getting some help from Someone who can walk on water! I know I had thought things were sunk at least three times so far.

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

* Of course, if I and the Troop *actually* begin to work on the "Law", we'll see failures that just naturally lead to the need for "grace"!

[jr56]

Good post. Unfortunately, many adult leaders don't want to be yelled at by a parent, and don't do what's right, and let the kid slide on through.

 

[allangr1024]

I agree with Lisa that the quality of the character of our scouts seems to be slipping a bit. But we have the requirements spelled out for us in the book, and we are not allowed to add to or take away from those requirements. The kids do this many merit badges, and serv in a POR for this long, and do this many service hours. There is no requirement to prove your "Character" in any way.

 

Now, if some kid has a mediocre POR, or does a poor job of doing filling the position, then we must look at the SM and staff as to why we let someone slide. In this, I have some control, since I am the one to sign off on the requirement. If the kid is a librarian, did I give him an proper job description, and did I examine the quality of the job he did, and did I suggest ways he could improve, and did I examine those. I put the "onus" back on the adult leaders who let things slide.

 

As to character, the only thing we have to sign off is the Scout Spirit requirement. That is the most subjective of them all. I suppose if a SM wants to he could use this to keep the kid from advancing until he is satisfied. But then, he needs to let the kid know what he must do, and examine the results, and suggest ways to improve on character qualities, and follow up to see if the kid did them, ect.

 

I have not yet had to do it, but does anyone know what would happen if a kid did his 4 to 6 months as a PL, and did not lead very well, and did not help his patrol, and caused a bunch of headaches for the SM; could a SM tell him to do the job over for another 4 to 6 months. I have had a kid who was elected as PL, and then was an absentee during football season. Little leadership there, and not much chance of me coaching him. I am pondering not giving him his requirement signoff.

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

I'm going to take a different tack, and hopefully not offend Lisa in the process (because she's one of the great ones). I think in this case, the awarding of rank points to other symptoms, and isn't the problem itself.

 

 

Lisa said it herself: "Why was he awarded Life? As far as I can tell, because nobody was willing to stand up to his mother. Attempts to call this child on his behavior inevitably result in screaming, ranting, raging encounters with her."

 

My take is that the real issue is the adult leadership doesn't have the collective spine to stand up to this bully (and I'm talking about Mom here) and say "No". And then to further say "If you don't like it, there's the door". This is a situation the adult leadership have allowed to happen, and Scout's like Lisa's son see right through the platitudes and know that the adult leaders he supposed to respect are not up to the task.

 

Unfortunately, it's too late to do something about it now - it should have been dealt with a long time ago.

 

Calico

 

[scottteng]

Well Lisabob what does it hurt to spread some of that rank wealth around! Sorry for the dig at your well stated political affiliations which you are entitled too. It harms all the other life scouts who may have struggled against all odds to attain that rank. Eagle fortunately is another story said candidate must come up with a project which will pass muster, and convince a district board that it has done so while demonstrating said candidate's leadership ability. Note that leadership may be conspicuously absent from the candidate's resume to this point all of his POR's being just that responsibilities to the troop such as the librarian where as long as he did not loose over half the unused merit badge books he will be a success. What else can one do with the not quite ready for prime time scout who earns the merit badges and does not overly rock the boat. Maybe the striving for Eagle will ready him or at least not embarrass the other Eagles too much.

[Bob White]

It is the Scoutmaster who determines if the Advancement Method of scouting is a way to recognize a scouts growth and accomplishments or if it is just a badge. Not the Scout, not the parent. It is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to see that the Methods of Scouting are used correctly.

 

But the Scoutmmaste cannot pick and choose what parts of the program he or she will use and what they will ignore or change, and then complain that they did not get the results that you should have gotten.

 

The further you get away from the Scouting program the less Scouting results you will get.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Lisabob]

Calico, you nailed it. I'm truly sorry to say it. That's a tough conversation to have with a disenchanted kid, I'll tell you.

 

 

 

 

[gwd-scouter]

LisaBob, I understand your post. In many ways, our Troop was there a few years ago. When I stepped up as SM, we had four guys at Life rank and one at Star that and I seriously questioned how they attained their rank. Rarely seen at meetings, let alone outings. When they were at meetings, the gathered in a corner together and paid little attention to what was going on. They were openly defiant about the changes the other leaders and I were making in the Troop, especially changing the PORs to be more than a patch on the sleeve for six months. None had the POR signed off for Eagle, so each was required to hold a position. Varying degrees of interest and success there. I realized I wasn't going to make much of an impact on these guys and needed to focus on the younger guys to turn the Troop around. Of those five guys, three made it to Eagle, one each over the course of three years. I wouldn't say they were the model Eagle Scout or what most people envision when they think of an Eagle Scout, but they did complete the printed requirements.

 

This past summer I was honored to award the Eagle Scout rank to a fellow that benefited from the changes we made in the Troop. His Eagle COH was one day before he left for college. This Scout is the very example of what we think of when we say Eagle Scout.

 

I am dismayed at parents' and Scouts' attempts to see advancement as nothing more than a check mark in a book. It is one area that I focus on and try to help them understand what advancement truly is. I work to get them to understand that advancement is a result of our program, not the mechanism that drives it. From Tenderfoot on up, I talk to the boys about their role in the Troop, about those intangible and subjective areas such as Scout Spirit and what it means to them. Leadership starts early in our Troop, not necessarily as a POR, but with a guy helping another guy learn how to do something. It is an expected characteristic of our Troop. If a new guy needs help with something, he learns very early on that he can ask any other Scout to help him regardless of rank or POR.

 

When it's my turn to speak at Scout meetings or at Courts of Honor, I talk about those intangibles. I bring up examples I've seen of the guys working together, helping each other, showing leadership, etc. At meetings it is a way to reinforce the importance of character growth to the boys, at COHs it reinforces it to the parents.

 

Your comment about your son wondering about the value of rank hits the problem dead on. The boys more than the adults know when something isn't fair, when someone is being passed along. They know when there is a difficult parent in the crowd (I am dealing with one right now). Her complaint is that her son has been in the Troop for a year and hasn't reached first class yet. What she isn't willing to see is that her son has missed several campouts during which important advancement opportunities were available. Or, if he was at a meeting or outing, he's the guy that is always holding the flashlight for the others while they are working setting things up. She sees it as him being left out by the others, the others see that he will always find a way to get out of work. Heck, it took him six months to finish the fitness requirement for Tenderfoot. Why? Whenever it came time to do the show improvement part he either didn't show up for that particular meeting or had a reason for why he couldn't do the run.

 

We've all had guys like this in our Troops. What is important in my view is not that he learns to tie knots with his eyes closed or becomes an expert camp chef, but that he becomes part of the team, a functioning member of his patrol, a Scout that learns to take pride in working hard for his accomplishments, a guy who eventually younger Scouts will look to for guidance and leadership. I did notice signs of growth in this lad at our recent Camporee. We have a new Scout that joined just before the Camporee. This new Scout has autism and the fellow I've been talking about buddied up with him for the weekend and worked with him to learn how to do things. Scout was most proud of himself for helping this new Scout. It's a good sign.

 

All I can say is we as adult leaders in Boy Scouting owe it to the boys to set and communicate a very clear vision and expectations for advancement for all ranks and stick to it.