Improving Wilderness Survival MB

[scottteng]

That is the key to the Merit Badge program none of them are about mastery they are all introduction. If a young man has a serious interest there is always more to learn.

[TAHAWK]

Is it the best introduction that it can be?

[SctDad]

I don't think that the MB should be about mastery. I think that it should be about competance (sp?) We don't expect the boys to be master canoe handlers, but we expect them to be competant in the use and handling one. They may not be able to survive 2 weeks in the woods alone without supplies, but being able to understand competance and skills would be a good requirement.

[TAHAWK]

Any specifics? We seem to have moved to theory fairly quickly. I was hoping for more concrete suggestions.

 

Ok. SO the MBP correctly discusses charateristics of a good site to wait out rescue, then neglects mentioning safe navigation as a survival need AND gives limited info on map and compass navigation only. It's as if you will only get lost/break an ankle/have someone get sick at a perfect place. So add navigation, including sun, moon, stars, terain features.

 

The MBP says wear long sleeves and trousers to avoid sunburn and insects, THEN says wear T-shirts and shorts in the wilderness in hot weather -- and shows almost nothing but Scouts so dressed AND with no hats at all. So fix that.

 

The MBP says to ignore Leave Np Trace in a survival situation and a couple of pages later says, follow "the principles of Leave No Trace," including selecting a LNT campfire site to prevent "trampling of people cooking and socializing. Lose LNT in this context.

 

Again, written by a commitee that didn't communicate well or reach a consensus.

 

Any reaction to the information on chemical treatment of water? Anything better to be said on fire-by-friction? Fire by flint and steel with a stainless steel knife? Shpould the MBP mention the risk from two-legged critters? (Thought we were inta' reality regading people as a risk to Scouts.) I mean, I have my ideas but hoped for different/better ideas through collectiove wisdom and experience.

 

 

[red feather]

As a WS merit badge counselor for some years now. Wilderness Survival is kinda a hobby for me and I take what I learn and teach very seriously.

 

The parts of the MBP that show incorrect clothing and questionable methods of surviving (as can be found in a lot of 'survival books') I use as teaching aids. After the scout has read the book and learned survival methods I ask them what is wrong with this picture or statement. When I get the answer from them a discussion of what they missed or what they saw or read is a 'teaching moment' that lets them start thinking.

 

Personally, fire starting, shelter, basic navigation, awareness, proper preparation, what to do when you get lost and water are the main topics that I have emphasis in.

 

Is the MBP perfect? No! But it is close and introduces the scout to the realm of wilderness survival and helps them start preparing for their own camping and life situations.

 

imho, a merit badge introduces a scout to the genre of that it covers and hopefully will provide a base for future investigation and learning.

 

Got Eagle in 68 (WS badge in 67) and still learning new ways and techniques of survival, and hope that the scouts that I have counseled have learned the basics to learn more.

 

Could the MBP be better? You bet! But it is not bad for a few pages pamphlet! As it is not Eagle required...who can tell what or when changes will be made(it should be Eagle required imho). As a counselor, I take my job as an assistant to learning very seriously.

 

Never been lost just mighty confused for awhile. Played solitaire and found myself looking over my shoulder for help with the cards.

 

yis

red feather

 

 

[kenk]

With all due respect, lets not try to turn the WS MB into a menagerie of other MB's. We already have Orienteering, several boating-related MB's, First Aid MB, and Woodcarving MB.

 

The Wilderness Survival MB should be and is about short-term survival, not homesteading. We don't need Scouts carving out mess kits from tree branches. They do need to learn how to prepare for rescue (provide a detailed trip plan to a trusted friend), how to gear for survival for one or two nights under the expected weather conditions, and how to tough it out until rescue comes.

 

Scouts need to LEARN about survival and practice some of the skills - they don't actually need to surivive themselves. In my view one night out is sufficient for them to learn about shelter building skills, though I fear some summer camps don't cover this skill sufficiently. Still, I understand about the Leave No Trace concerns.

 

I like the emphasis on fire-starting with alternative methods. I do hope the councelors discuss the many modern options for providing safe drinking water.

 

Suvival skills have been a hobby of mine for some time now. I've gone from the complex to the simple. These days my views tend toward those of Peter Kummerfeldt at http://www.outdoorsafe.com/index.htm .

 

He stresses the "kit" that is small/simple/portable enough to be with you at ALL times. If you haven't seen his web site, take a look - very interesting. BTW, he was featured in a Boy's Life a year or so back.

 

Overall I think the MB is OK as it is. The real question is how the councelors approach the materials.

[TAHAWK]

I do not suggest returning to the orgins of this MB in 1974. That was 1974. I'm OK with "modern survival" as a more obtainable skillset for Scouts.

 

Almost perfect?

 

The current (2007) edition of the MBP:

 

Is wrong on water purification - if you believe the CDC, EPA, Red cross, and U.S. military are right. Namely, the experts say ordinary chlorine (hydroxide) and iodine are dangerously complicated to sue and ineffective for field water disinfection.

 

Is wrong on fire-by-friction. If you can't see, I'd be happy to specify.

 

Is wrong on fire by natural flint and steel. Can't you see how? Pocketknives are made of what steel these days? (Pocketknives as the optimum survival tools, for pete's sake!)

 

Gives no information on ferrocerium technique but shows it above the incorrent information on natural flint and steel.

 

Says ignore LNT in a survival situation AND follow LNT in a survival situation. Got it?

 

For exteremely hot weather, says wear short-sleeves and shorts, illustrates wearing NO hat, THEN also says wear long sleves, trousers, and a brimmed hat. Clear on that?

 

Says survival needs are capable of being listed in a fixed priority with no reference whatsoever to the facts of the emergency. Boat sinking? First Aid first! Start a fire before signaling that other boat. Ask any 11-year-old.

 

Mentions only wool and polyprophylene as clothing materials. It's as if polyester fleece and polyester wicking fabrics had never been invented and come to absolutelty dominate the market - twenty years ago.

 

Fails to explain the different garments needed for the different layers. Hey, wool is wonderful. What else can be said?

 

Acknowledges that a site to wait out rescue has certain needed characterics THEN totally fails to discuss the need to move to find that site or how to safely do so. (At least there's something on lost-proofing in there now.) Guess you only get in troubble in perfect places. I know I do.

 

STOP. Think THEN observe. Ready; fire; aim.

 

Ignores the causes of 50% of all wilderness deaths - falls and heart attacks. (No worry about heart attacks? No adults along with the Scouts? They are issued at least two adults. Are they to return the adults in good shape after the trek?)

 

Fails to state you need to keep your feet together when going downstream. Pretty simple. On every water slide, and water slides don't have rocks and branches to cuase - emmm- unfortunate things to happen to spread legs.

 

Warns that -- GET READY FOR IT - tinder is highly flammable. A big WOW on that. I shiver in dread.

 

Never mentions cotton and white petroleum or warns that its COTTON dryer lint that's so scarry - cause it's highly flammable.

 

Ignores the need to administer antihistamines as a follwoup to EpiPens in a wilderness setting.

 

There is more. And less.

 

But if it's almost perfect . . . .

 

 

[red feather]

Pull up a log and have a cup of joe and accept my apologies for not being fully up to date. I have been using the 2001 version of the pamphlet and as the last one on one counseling that I have done was mid year 2007. I had not realized that there is a newer version out.

 

Will be getting the newest one and reviewing it as soon as the scout office opens tommorow and will get back to you.

 

yis

red feather

 

 

[shortridge]

Says survival needs are capable of being listed in a fixed priority with no reference whatsoever to the facts of the emergency. Boat sinking? First Aid first! Start a fire before signaling that other boat. Ask any 11-year-old.

 

With respect, that is clearly a gross oversimplification of how the priorities for survival should be applied.

 

Their main goal, as I see it, is to have Scouts recognize that in most situations, these are the order in which you need to do things. Positive mental attitude is at the top to make Scouts understand that keeping their wits about them and consciously fighting panic and rash action is critical. Food, which most not schooled in survival techniques might put near the top, is last, and for very good reason. You have to adjust the others to fit the situation, which I would hope most reasonable people would find pretty obvious.

 

Ignores the causes of 50% of all wilderness deaths - falls and heart attacks. (No worry about heart attacks? No adults along with the Scouts? They are issued at least two adults. Are they to return the adults in good shape after the trek?)

 

So let's require CPR certification of all Scouts for rank advancement or renewal of membership. Seriously, let's! I'd be hugely in favor of that.

[TAHAWK]

The 2008 printing is the 2007 edition with colored pictures (One pictute is very slightly different. Can you find it?). Either will do.

 

Shortridge, thank you for contributing.

 

I posted:

[The 2007 edition]ays survival needs are capable of being listed in a fixed priority with no reference whatsoever to the facts of the emergency. Boat sinking? First Aid first! Start a fire before signaling that other boat. Ask any 11-year-old."

 

Shortridge commented:

"With respect, that is clearly a gross oversimplification of how the priorities for survival should be applied."

 

Shortridge,

I contend that you do not even know what the priorities are without knowledge of the emergency. A need for first aid -- or any other survival need -- may be a high priority -- or not a priority at all, depending on the facts on the ground. So why does the MBP say: "The priorities are listed at right in order of importance. 1. STOP 2.Provide first aid. 3.Seek shelter 4.Fire . . "? Don;t we need to teach the Scouts that they must decide the priorities to deal with an emergency (in the wilderness or otherwise), not some rigid list in a book. Often, rigid = dead. That would be the "think" and "plan" parts of "STOP."

 

Shortridge posts:

"Their main goal, as I see it, is to have Scouts recognize that in most situations, these are the order in which you need to do things. Positive mental attitude is at the top to make Scouts understand that keeping their wits about them and consciously fighting panic and rash action is critical. Food, which most not schooled in survival techniques might put near the top, is last, and for very good reason. You have to adjust the others to fit the situation, which I would hope most reasonable people would find pretty obvious."

 

Shortridge,

1) I fear you are right. They think they are doing something useful in setting a rigid order in which survival needs should be prioritized. But I can find no data to support the conclusion that survival needs should typically be prioritized in the order set on page 20 of the MBP or in any other order. I have looked long and hard. You can be just as dead from 98.6 issues as first aid issues and saved best by signaling or the ignored navigation vs. "seek shelter."

 

2) While "positive mental attitude" is no longer at the top ("STOP" is.), I have no problem with putting the mental aspects first as it controls all else. However, refusal to see a risk can be as deadly as fear/anxiety/panic. No "STOP" (or SOTPA), without some intimation that there is a problem.

 

3) Yup. Everyone agrees food has a priority down the list of survival needs, but a seventh "priority" that food is not a priority suggests confusion over what "priority" means.

 

Shortridge posts:

"So let's require CPR certification of all Scouts for rank advancement or renewal of membership. Seriously, let's! I'd be hugely in favor of that."

 

Shortridge,

how's about heart attack first aid, of which CPR is a part? (CPR would also help with anaphylactic shock, a treatment modality that the MBP ignores -- like antihistamines, instead counseling "immediate treatment by a physician" -- in the wilderness -- "immediate" [imagine a suitable emoticon.]) Since heart attacks kill eight times as many in the wilderness as hypo/hyperthermia, it seemingly deserves more than being totally ignored. At least that's one oldster's prejudice.

 

 

 

How about sleep as a need? It won't come easily in the excitement of a sirvival situation.

 

Avoiding unpleasant interaction with critters?

 

Might staying together be given a high priority in a particular survival situation that the MBP even discusses?

 

[red feather]

Having bought the latest version of the WS MBP, and with only a quick perusal, it appears to be a 'dumbed' down of the 2001 MBP. (and those before 2001)

 

Asked several of our ASMs and older scouts what was wrong with the friction fire area of the MBP we cannot find much fault with it. The only comment from our scouts was that if the nylon cord had a low melting point it would not be much use. Please specify. Always looking to learn new things.

 

STOP is a viable first line of defence when lost or in a survival situation. Of course this can and should/would be modified to account for the emergency. To say that scouts whould follow the seven rules when a boat is sinking is, imho, a discredit to scouts and scouters who are capable of thinking.

 

Every survival situation has its variences and requirements. The purpose of a merit badge is to introduce the scout to the field of the badge not to make them an expert.

 

As a counselor and SM I do not recommend stainless steel knifes as they are hard to sharpen and not easily maintained. Part of our teaching process, eh? Every tool/item taken should have a dual purpose if at all possible. Takes time to learn these purposes and apply them.

 

LNT is to be observed in the training/learning process as stated in the MBP pg 26. When in a survival situation pg 26 indicates that LNT has second place to survival.

 

Layering is laid out starting on page 15 and 16 and "other materials" are listed on the same pages. I assume they are talking about the modern materials that we have all been using for the last twenty years. Kinda up to those teaching this area of experitse to expound on.

 

"STOP. Thnk THEN observe. Ready, fire; aim." When lost STOP comes into real play to help prevent the first reaction of the newly lost of panic. If observation has not been ongoing before getting lost that just compounds the issue. Once lost STOP is vital to prevent getting even more lost.

 

Yes the first aid portion of the MBP is lacking but in arguement could be said that these parts of survial would be covered in the First Aid MB. (differnt subject )The lack of the inclusion of the first aid from 2001 is in my opion an issue.

 

Keeping feet together, good idea but to choose keeping feet togethere and having an issue with the current or seperating the feet to avoid a problem would be a good thing. (personal experience). Ouch, but lived.

 

Depending on the age of the lost person, or the age of the one learing about what materials are flammable, a warning is approriate. Most dryer lint in not just cotton lint but also inclued, hair, hylon, wool, and other things that get caught inthe trap (do not know what they are but have not been able to identify them).

 

Is the new MBP not as good as the last one that I was using, have to agree there. Just makes my job as a WS counselor that more interesting.

 

Hope to have time to look into the other issues that you brought up in the near future.

 

sorry for the long post but been a long day

 

yis

red feather

[TAHAWK]

red feather:

"Having bought the latest version of the WS MBP, and with only a quick perusal, it appears to be a 'dumbed' down of the 2001 MBP. (and those before 2001)."

 

If you go back to the very first version in 1974, it was very different - more primitive living as noted above. Comparing 2007 to 2001, there are differences but my main disappointment is the lack of bringing the information up to date, continued lack or organization, and errors.

 

red feather:

"Asked several of our ASMs and older scouts what was wrong with the friction fire area of the MBP we cannot find much fault with it. The only comment from our scouts was that if the nylon cord had a low melting point it would not be much use. Please specify. Always looking to learn new things."

 

The only wood mentioned is oak, a relatively terrible choice that I cannot find positively mentioned in any book or website. Lubrication of the handpiece/spindle interface is not mentioned but is very, very common advice by experts. Help me out if I'm missing something, but the standard advice is to avoid hardwood for the spindle or hearth.

 

red feather:

"STOP is a viable first line of defence when lost or in a survival situation. Of course this can and should/would be modified to account for the emergency. To say that scouts whould follow the seven rules when a boat is sinking is, imho, a discredit to scouts and scouters who are capable of thinking."

 

Then why require them to memorize survival needs in nay set order? I see the mental element as so important that it's good to palce it first. Food is probably going to be last. All other is situational, and I think we should not evade teaching that the Scout must exercise judgment depending on the facts.

 

red feather:

"Every survival situation has its variences and requirements. The purpose of a merit badge is to introduce the scout to the field of the badge not to make them an expert."

 

I agree with the first sentence. I don't see how the other fits into the discussion. I don't think we are going to turn out experts. If we're back to a set priority list, the reality is that they are going to have to do the best they can. No sense fooling them about that. So a checklist of needs by all means - so nothing is overlooked under the stress of the moment but not a supposedly fixed order.

 

red feather:

"As a counselor and SM I do not recommend stainless steel [knives]... as they are hard to sharpen and not easily maintained. Part of our teaching process, eh? Every tool/item taken should have a dual purpose if at all possible. Takes time to learn these purposes and apply them."

 

I too prefer carbon steel vs. SS, but how hard a knife is to sharpen is a function of factors other than choice of steel. Some of the most worthlessly soft knives I have seen are SS.

 

Point is, SS will not yield a spark when struck by natural flint. Most all BSA packet knives are SS. Blithfully assuming the pocket knife will work is about as questionable as assuming "flint" will be found laying around. (Flint is found in one site in all of Ohio. Indians traveled days to get there. Can't dial up eBay if you need a fire in a survival situtation.)

 

red feather:

"LNT is to be observed in the training/learning process as stated in the MBP pg 26. When in a survival situation pg 26 indicates that LNT has second place to survival."

 

Read page 29. It expressly says that LNT is to be observed "in a survival situation." That is inconsistent with the language you found and with good sense.

 

red feather:

"Layering is laid out starting on page 15 and 16 and "other materials" are listed on the same pages. I assume they are talking about the modern materials that we have all been using for the last twenty years. Kinda up to those teaching this area of experitse to expound on."

 

I don't think they are "laid out." There is no hint that the layers are different in any way or have different functions - just dress in layers.

 

Polypropylene is mentioned but not for which layer. "Polypro" has been so superceded by the superior polyester fabrics for base layers that is much harder to even find. Polypro was very rarely used for other layers because it does not work well in that aplication.

 

Wool is not "terrific." If it were, it would be used by Arctic and Antartic expeditions (other than those from NZ (- Wool works. It's OK. It's also expensive, wears out faster, harder to maintain, weighs a ton when wet, and hard to dry out.

 

If cotton is so wonderful for "hot weather," and I think it too is OK, then explain the thinking of the same organization on the new wicking Field Shirt of nylon.

 

red feather:

"'STOP. Think THEN observe. Ready, fire; aim.' When lost STOP comes into real play to help prevent the first reaction of the newly lost of panic. If observation has not been ongoing before getting lost that just compounds the issue. Once lost STOP is vital to prevent getting even more lost.'

 

Respectfully, suggesting thinking before observation is to suggest prcessing data one has yet to obtain by observation. It should be Stop, Observe, Think, Plan, Act. Sadly, the virtue of "STOP" as a mnemonic device to have overcome the lack of logic in the formulation. So we have to explain "thinking" on p. 20 as gathering data - observing (Example: "Look around for landmarks." Is that not observing?)

 

red feather:

"Yes the first aid portion of the MBP is lacking but in arguement could be said that these parts of survial would be covered in the First Aid MB. (differnt subject )The lack of the inclusion of the first aid from 2001 is in my opion an issue."

 

Yup. We have first aid in MB after MB - same stuff. But if you take the space to specifically mention anaphylactic shock, saying that "immediate" treatment by a physician is required in a wilderness setting is rather silly, and omitting mention of antihistamines -- when the EPIPen will typically stop working in under an hour -- is neglectful. Mainline sources say to admminister antihistamines. One less entence of useless advice and one more of useful advice. Fair trade?

 

Goin' downstream? What about strong advice to avoid crossing fast-moving water in the first instance?

 

red feather:

"Depending on the age of the lost person, or the age of the one learing about what materials are flammable, a warning is approriate. Most dryer lint in not just cotton lint but also inclued, hair, hylon, wool, and other things that get caught inthe trap (do not know what they are but have not been able to identify them).

 

We are dealing with Scouts as our target customers, so at least eleven. At that age, the notion that tinder is, by definition, highly flammable is so fundamental as to be unneeded. Dryer lint is just tinder. No worse than cotton. Less flammable than the standard tinder - cotton slathered with white petroleum -- or really dry grass for that matter. Hair and nylon do not burn at normal fire temps. They melt. That's why they should advise use of dryer lint from cotton items.

 

By the way, three of the links in the 2008 printing are dead, three links are only places to sign up for survival courses, and one is just leads to the 32-year-old FN21-76 repeated PLUS offers to sell Rambo knives - in the worst sense of that term. That leaves 30% of the links as useful. Several here could do better, if only by checking to see if the links still work.

 

This post IS NOT as long as the MBP (64 pp.) It only seems that way.