Boys dont care about advancement

[Frank17]

When I took Wood Badge training, there was a big discussion held by the SMs from all the different units around the campfire about how their units were run. One of the main differences I found was how the units awarded ranks. Some awarded rank advancement cards immediately at the end of a sucessful BOR. Others, like our Troop, only gave out rank cards and badges at the Troop's quarterly COH. One of my patrol's Woodbadgers even tried to come up with a goal for his ticket to award the rank patch immediately following the BOR for the rank; he was told that went against council policy, as an advancement report had to be filed and approved first. He claimed his scouts did not feel like they earned the rank unless they had the patch on their uniform, and wanted the immediate recognition.

 

In the 3 years I have belonged to our Troop with 60+ scouts, I have never heard a single complaint from a scout about having to wait to get their new rank at the next COH. The opposite seems true: we have many scouts who have old ranks on months after they advanced simply because they have not taken the time to sew or iron the new one on. I would have to agree with RangerT that my troop has this trend also. Our boys seem to be into scouting more for the friendships and experiences rather than the advancement, which I do not necessarily see as a bad thing. Not to say they do not advance; it is just not their main driver.

[IM_Kathy]

with the discussion on "boys don't care about advancement"

 

In our old troop we had a boy who was still sitting at Tenderfoot while in 8th grade... we had our new 6th graders already working toward their 2nd class rank. He even sat in on some of the rank class work and he understood and could do it all, but he didn't want to get signed out or go through board of review. He just wanted to come to meetings when he wanted to and go camping with the troop. There was nothing anyone could do to motivate him - he had no interest in becoming anything more than what he was.

 

In our current troop all the boys are interest in advancement - it isn't even something that we have to work to make happen. The boys will come up to the leaders and say "I'm ready to show this..." or "I'd like to do this... do you have some suggestions on how to do it."

 

on the discussion on awarding badges...

 

Our old troop only awarded at COH which would've been fine, but they only had a couple a year and if you missed it you would have to wait for quite a while to get it.

 

Our current troop they will award the badge (merit or rank) at a meeting, but they keep the cards and mother pins until COH so that all the boys will be recognized again and will then have their cards for their records.

 

My son loves the way our current troop does it because he gets to wear his new rank right away. With the old troop it was possible to have earned 2 ranks before getting either of them.

 

I personally don't care as long as if it's only given at COH then there needs to be one every couple of months.

[FScouter]

My experience has been if adults "don't care about advancement", neither will the boys. If the adult method is to withhold advancement recognition until the next court of honor (weeks or months down the road) no boy will complain about it.

 

On the other hand, if recognition is immediate, with a little flair and ceremony at the next troop meeting, boys will relish that. Skip it, and they will say "why didn't I get my recognition?"

[gwd-scouter]

Boys all have different motivations and reasons for being in Scouts. We had a boy who was first class at the time he turned 18 and aged out as a youth in the Troop. Heck of a nice guy and really great with the younger Scouts. He just wasn't particularly interested in advancement. When my older son was a youth in Scouts, he plowed through the advancements reaching Eagle at 14 1/2. Younger son has been sitting at Life for a couple of years now, but has begun planning his Eagle project. Not because of any newly found personal motivation in advancement, but because he has applied to attend a residential High School in our state and if accepted will move away next year, making it difficult for him to complete the requirements for Eagle. An external pressure causing him to rethink advancement.

 

Our guys in the Troop are getting very good at planning advancement opportunities in their calendar for meetings and outings. Some guys eagerly present their handbooks for sign-off. Others seem to care less. I do take the time to talk to those guys that have stalled to find out what's going on. In many cases the Scout has no idea that he has completed a requirement - you know, probably hasn't even cracked the spine on his handbook. That is a topic for another thread.

[Narraticong]

"Scouts get enough school at school"

 

Thanks, Kudu for such wise words. As a Scoutmaster with only a year under my belt, I have luckily learned that lesson. I was lucky enough to have an old grizzled Scoutmaster give me some good advice when he found out I was starting a troop. He said "make it fun".

 

A simple concept, but one we adults tend to forget. Scouting is no more than a game for the boys. You're right that done correctly (tradionally) the boys learn citizenship within their own little republic (patrol and troop).

 

By decreasing the required merit badges for Eagle, we would in essence be lessening the importance of that badge. In turn, we would probably need to go back to having First Class be the most important rank. That would require doing away with "First Class / First Year", which would be just fine with me. Maybe require time in rank for Tenderfoot, Second and First Class. Really put more emphasis on mastering those skills rather than just learning them.

 

By putting emphasis back on First Class, we would automatically be putting the emphasis back on the outdoors...on the fun stuff. I can't see bringing back signalling, but maybe a bigger emphasis on compass, map and GPS use.

 

Boys love Scouts for the camping and being outdoors. I think we could really grow Scouting if we put the emphasis back there. Since the 1970's we have mistakenly tried to reach out to boys with programs that strayed away from the outdoors. We have lost boys to other interests continually. Why not put the focus back on the one thing we offer that nobody else does? I have rarely met a boy who did not absolutely love playing in the woods. Especially today when so many of us live in treeless suburbs.

 

Quit wasting money on Soccer Scouts and spend it on backpacks and tents. It's a program that worked in 1910 and I know it works 100 years later. The boys get it. We adults just think too much and try to micromanage.

 

Keep it outdoors. Keep it simple. Keep it fun.

[ozemu]

Putting yourself 'out there' as a candidate for advancement is brave when we cheer like mad every time they achieve blowing their nose without a goober dangling on their cheek. We might make less of a deal about it all for the older ones; more of the quiet adult praise like we give to work colleagues may allow the older Scouts to risk trying. The public embarrasment of failing to achieve put aside they may have a go.

 

My theory may not be well explained but there is sound research on self esteem that argues against making a big deal of things that are not really a big deal. People need to work hard to achieve things so that they learn that working hard is a good and useful thing to do. That needs to be applied with age, maturity and individual variability in mind.

 

Benjamin Franklin failed 1000 times trying to invent a lightbulb. Babe Ruth was struck out more than any other some seasons. Achievements are the result of trying and failing and trying again. If we are afraid to fail we will not advance ourselves. Are the older Scouts afraid of failing?

 

There is also failing to balance work, school, family, friends. Failing to get support from other Scouts for projects, failing to meet dealines or to do good enough. Failing to organise their lives or failing to satify the 'demands' of a peer group. If the are too anxious about some of these things they will focus on the issue and everything else (Scouts included) drops away. Oddly they will probably not achieve very well in the narrowed field of interest due to nerves etc.

 

For those effected it is not a Scout issue. It is the way the see the world.

[scoutldr]

Oz, that would be Thomas Edison with the light bulb thing. Ben Franklin had the kite and the key.

 

"argues against making a big deal of things that are not really a big deal. People need to work hard to achieve things so that they learn that working hard is a good and useful thing to do."

 

I always remember what my Dad told me when I asked "what do I get if I bring home all A's?" He said, "you get to stay off restriction". Others were getting a dollar or five for every A...in my house, it was expected behavior.

 

I recently had to discipline an employee for being chronically late for work...she was incredulous that I would expect such a thing..."do you know how hard it is to find a parking place???" So I says, "how about you leave the house earlier..." She just huffed and stormed off...How dare I suggest such an unreasonable solution...

[ozemu]

oops, thanks scoutldr.

 

I try to use terminology that is US so I have to explain things less. Doesn't always work though eh? I was more worried about getting the basballers name right.

[TwoXForr]

Just wanted to know Oz it is a "baseball player" not a "baseballer".

 

In your defense it is probably one of the most confusing games in the world. I dont know of any other sport in the world that at the begining of the round of play the defense controls the ball. (The Pitcher)

[Bob White]

Let's remember that Advancement is a Method of Scouting, and that the Methods of Scouting are tools used by adult leaders to achieve the Aims and Mission of Scouting.

 

Scouts do not need to "care about" advancement. They already care about adventure, and the skills of scouting are taught, practiced and applied as they participate in adventure through Scouting.

 

Youth respond to recognition and positive reinforcement without needing to "care" about advancement.

 

If Scouts in the unit are not advancing the problem is likely that the the adult leaders do not understand how to build the requirements into the activities so that by participating in the program a scout will learn and be tested on the requirements.

 

What we need is for more adult leaders to understand and care about the Advancement Method...the problem is not the Scouts.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[momof7scouts]

If Scouts in the unit are not advancing the problem is likely that the the adult leaders do not understand how to build the requirements into the activities so that by participating in the program a scout will learn and be tested on the requirements.

 

I think overall lack of advancement is because of leadership. The first troop our son was in had 70% of the boys make Eagle. Not because it was a gimmee but because everyone was motivated and it was fun. The older scouts really worked on helping lower ranking ones, planning events to enable them to move forward. The leadership was very supportive of streamlining things and not burning the boys out.

 

The new troop plans lots of activities that have little to do with advancement but they burn out their boys and leadership with "planning" meetings. In addition to the two hour weekly meeting, there is a two hour "leadership" meeting that all boys in leadership must attend, then there is the weekly ASM meeting. There was a special "leadership corps" of boys that ran the troop and no input from the select few in this corps was permitted. My boys were blown away by the power these boys had and how they bullied all the other scouts.

 

When my husband took over last February, there were boys that had been in for two years and had not yet made tenderfoot! There were lots of ski trips, scuba diving trips, etc. but little done for rank advancement. Additionally, even at scout camp boys would carry their books around with them and the leadership would promise to sign things off at the end of camp, then not do it. The life and eagles did nothing to help with rank advancement for the lower ranking scouts.

My husband has changed this and really irritated the old rank and file leadership. He did away with the "leadership track" which added an extra meeting every week for boys who aspired to even be chaplain. Many more boys are now interested in leadership. He pushed the boys being den chiefs, before our sons came into the troop NONE of these boys ever served as a den chief, all of mine have the award for this service. He pushed merit badge college attendance, again, none of these boys had ever been to one. He had at least one affordable camp per month, often more, some specifically focused on rank advancement through 1st class, and he supported the life and eagle scout helping out more. There are now life and eagle scouts who actually offer to help the lower ranks learn the things needed for advancement. There was only one or two COHs per year and few boys ever seemed to advance, other than the corps. Now there are at least four and at least triple the number of boys being honored.

We are probably changing troops soon because our sons are still unhappy in this troop but the feedback from the newer parents has been worth the effort.

[fleetfootedfox]

Yeah, people need to go to training and try to do what they recommend. Far too many people, I think, either skip the training or let it go in one ear and out the other saying something like, "well, that's not how our troop does it."

 

A large portion of the SM handbook is devoted to planning troop meetings and activities using the standard troop meeting plan form which includes time for skill instruction. Our troop was not using this until I talked our new SM into trying it. This has been a big help to us.

[Horizon]

Let me be one more who thinks that boys don't want more school. My new SPL has jumped on making the skills fun, and boys are learning new things for a reason.

 

Example - lashings. With today's tents, and the prohibition on cutting wood, and the reduction in fuel on the ground - lashings are hard to see as a vital skill. My SPL's solution? Seige artillery. They have been working every Monday on building a trebuchet. Each week they put together the poles, make adjustments, tighten their lashings, improve the knots on the guy lines, etc. Last week they had their first successful launch of a tennis ball across the church parking lot. Lashings are now fun. At the end of each Monday, the SPL walks up to the younger boys who put the trebuchet together and signs off in their books on certain lashings and knots. The younger boys did not even realize that they were "demonstrating", it just happened.

 

We have a big controversy regarding a new high school stadium. I invited a member of the school board to come and speak on the subject, and to take questions. It was a very interesting meeting for the boys. He invited the boys to come to the next School Board meeting. They could present the colors, and some could even make comments during that period. AFTER all of that, the boys learned that this was a requirement for Cit Community.

 

Hide the "work" in something fun. Don't make it a worksheet exercise, rather read the book yourself and think of ways to slip in advancement work in a way that doesn't look or feel like work.