BOR - Opinions please ...

[Gold Winger]

"Since the BSA does not require a handbook to be present for a scout to pass a board of review then the unit has no authority to add it as a requirement. "

 

Other than saying that a parent can't sit on a BOR, BSA is fairly mute on what a BOR is or does.

 

 

[evmori]

Not sure the Scout's book is required. If your Advancement Chair is worth their salt, they will have the Scouts current advancement records which would preclude the need for the book.

 

Did they give your son the reason for denial in writing as required?

 

When I was the AC of our unit, I asked the Scout to bring his book. I always had his up-to-date advancement records so if he didn't bring his book it wasn't a deal killer.

 

I don't think there should be an appeal! Have your son schedule another BOR & bring his book! This BOR should take all of 5 minutes to verify he has or hasn't met the requirements for rank.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

There are times when you have to take a step back from the question of "should they do this?" and instead, ask the question "how should we respond to this?"

 

My son's troop requires a boy to have his book with him in order for a BOR to take place. They enforce this all the way up to the SPL, who last year had his BOR delayed a week because he forgot his book. When I asked why we do this I got three answers, some of which I like better than others. They were 1) because that's how we always have done it (my least favorite); 2) because it encourages responsibility and preparedness, just as you wouldn't go to an interview without a copy of your resume for the employer to see; and 3) because that way if there are questions about how sign offs occurred, we can at least see whose initials are on the line.

 

I will admit that the third has, on rare occasion, become an issue. We had one boy who was signing books for others when he did not have the authority to do so. We had another couple of cases where more senior scouts who did have the authority to sign off, were not being very careful or responsible about how they used that authority, resulting in kids showing up at BORs who acknowledged that they didn't really know the material/hadn't actually fully done the requirements. Now in both cases it would have been much better for the SM or advancement chair to have caught these, but they didn't. In that regard the BOR acting as a quality control for the troop (letting the SM know to deal with these problems) was important and would not have happened if the scouts hadn't had their books with them.

 

But again, I think you have to decide whether this is something you need to make a big deal about right now. Maybe it is one of the bigger problems or issues in your troop and causes sufficient chaos that it needs to be addressed. I will say in my son's troop, while this may upset some folks here, I see this as an issue to be put on the back burner while they attempt to figure out some much more weighty matters first.

 

There's the question of what lessons we want to teach kids. There are times in life when unfair and undesirable things happen, far worse than delaying a BOR for a couple of days or even a month (depending on how often BORs convene). Is the lesson to be afraid and embarrassed to deal with the sometimes imperfect hand you're dealt? Is it to make a big stink about it every time life is unfair? Or is it that stuff happens, and let's look to how to pick up and move forward from here? Personally I'd prefer to see us teach kids to be more resilient in dealing with minor set backs. Not to say changes can't also be made, but let's not allow things to get blown out of proportion.

 

[Crew21_Adv]

TnTScoutMomma,

 

 

Greetings!

 

I was pretty much in concurrence with your BOR. Until like ursus snorous roarus stated, the next BOR allowed a Tenderfoot Scout to pass without his handbook.

 

One thing to consider. As much as the literature and handbooks are a baseline, no two Troops will be identical. Just hypothetical, but a Scout may be asked if he enjoys Scouting yes or no in one state. While on the other side of our country, a similar Scout may be grilled and performing skill after skill for a couple of hours to achieve the same rank.

 

But at least, within a Scout's Troop, there should be some regular standards, that both Scouts and families can rely upon.

 

A question though. Was it the same BOR adults which served on both board of reviews for your son and the Tenderfoot Scout?

 

Within my own Troop, we conduct BOR's with a week advanced request during the Troop meeting. During our regular troop meetings, we have had Scouts arrive in full uniforms (Scout hat to socks and hiking boots) and Scouts arriving in nothing resembling a uniform (maybe its because the just come from baseball or soccer practice, maybe because the parents or boys really care about being in uniform). But as a Scout leader, we don't turn a boy away from the meeting for being in urban school attire.

 

Now to describe our similar situation to your son's recent BOR. For a few reasons, our Troop Committee has decided that they will conduct a uniform inspection prior to beginning the BOR. All of our Scouts and families have been made aware of this. If they do not pass a uniform inspection, the BOR ends and the Scout is explained what patches he has been issued that he should be wearing. (Usually it is the rank prior, which the parents have not sewed onto the shirt yet.)

 

So.... your question.. Was your son's BOR and the other Scouts BOR mishandled? Yeah.. If it was the same BOR adults. Yes. Maybe not intended to be that way.. but yes.

 

Are you spot on in thinking? Well yes. I would concur...

 

My opinion now... Is it the end of a Scouting trail for your son, No. Is it a disappointment, yes. Should BOR members be run out of town on a rail (or taken off the troop committee), No.. No way.. But could the Advancement Chair discuss what is expected from the entire Troop and also discuss what is expected from the adults serving on a BOR. Yes. Both Scouts and adults should have a baseline of what is expected. What could result in a "Go vs. No Go" decision.

 

Good Luck to your Scouting son on the rest of his Trail and his campaign for SPL.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[TnTScoutMomma]

Thanks again for the continued replies!

 

It's interesting to see the varying opinions and I realize now that, as someone mentioned, being on the same page is really the key.

 

This is the first time any of our scouts were failed or not passed or not advanced (I'm so confused about the proper terminology there). We've never dealt with the "what now?" question. Since it's my son I can't make suggestions, but am glad to hear how others would have handled so we'll know next time. This is the first time it's happened, but it most likely won't be the last.

 

We typically hold BORs every other month and it has worked out perfectly, but as I said, we are a young troop and the patrols are pretty much about the same place. My guess is that everyone will assume that he'll wait until the next BOR (November)-- that is his assumption and mine as well. Unless someone else brings it up that's how we'll leave it. (The joys of leadership!)

 

Because we are leaders I am looking to the future and want to ensure a fair and consistent standard is set and a plan is in place when things don't go as we or the scout anticipates.

 

To answer the questions about the tenderfoot scout. Yes, he was sitting for the rank of Tenderfoot and it was the same board on the same evening. I was proud of my boy. He knew the other boy did not have his book either. He said at first he thought it wasn't fair, but when he thought about it (on his own) he came to the conclusion that the other boy was younger, it was his first time and he felt that going for Star rank should be held more accountable for things like remembering a book.

 

Thanks again!

 

 

[NeilLup]

Fast Forward about 5 years

 

Scenario 1

 

Proctor: Welcome to the SAT tests. Please give me your admission ticket.

Your son: Gosh, I forgot it. Can I take the test anyway.

Proctor: I'm sorry but without the ticket you can't.

Your son: But that's unfair. My Star Scout Board of Review passed me even though I forgot my notebook.

Proctor: I am sorry, but you can't take the SAT without your ticket.

Your son: AAAGGGGGH!!!

 

Scenario 2:

 

Proctor: Welcome to the SAT tests. Please give me your admission ticket.

Your son:: I have it right here. Ever since I got failed on my Star Board of Review for not bringing my notebook, I make sure that I always have the things with me that I really need.

Proctor: Great. Good luck on the SATs.

 

Or let's up the ante a bit:

 

Scenario 3

Random person: The dinosaurs are coming. They're going to eat us all.

Your son: No problem. We can get away in my car. WHERE'S MY CAR KEYS?? They're not in my pocket. We can't get away!!

Dinosaurs: Chomp, chomp. Very tasty.

 

or

Scenario 4

Random person: The dinosaurs are coming. They're going to eat us all.

Your son. No problem. We can get away in my car. My car keys are right here. Ever since I got failed by my Star Scout Board of Review for not having my notebook, I take responsibility for having with me the things that I will need. Hop in.

Car: Vroom, vroom.

Dinosaurs: Curses, foiled again! I'm afraid we'll go extinct.

 

We're not in this Scouting business to give out badges or to produce Eagle Scouts. We're in it to improve citizenship, character and fitness. I would respectfully suggest that, handled right, you son has just had a life lesson. Possibly an important one that he will never forget and the penalty is something that, in the overall scheme of things, is really quite inconsequential.

 

One of the criticisms of the raising of today's youth is that everything is too positive and kids get huge trophies just for participation. Kids are shielded from negative experiences and having to deal with unpleasantness. Youth are denied, if you will, from the emotional vaccination of small unpleasant experiences which will prepare them for big unpleasantness when they get older.

 

Those small unpleasantnesses are something that Scouting can deliver and can the Scouts to grow. Not to play "poor me" (which is something that my wife says I do entirely too much) but some of the unpleasantnesses that I remember from my Scouting days were:

 

1) I had been a Scout for about 8 months and was 11. I showed up a couple of minutes late for a Troop meeting and learned that there had been a reorganization of patrols. I went over to my regular patrol in the patrol corner and they told me they had taken in a couple of new members, they were full and I was not welcome. I should just go away. I had essentially been voted off the island.

2) I was going for First Class Scout. I was trying for First Class cooking. The food I cooked was less than great. I was laughed at by my patrol members and failed for First Class cooking.

3) I was a Star Scout and the only Star Scout in the troop. I really wanted to be SPL. The Scoutmaster appointed another boy who was a Second Class Scout as SPL.

4) Being an OA member was a really big thing. I failed election the first year. So I tried much harder to be a good Scout the next year. I failed election again the second year. I was the only "senior" Scout in our Troop who was not an OA member and was ragged on rather mercilessly about it.

5) I was trying to earn Scout Lifeguard and one requirement for that was Rowing merit badge. On Thursday at camp, because many boys had been secreting candy, gum, etc. in their tents, all the candy had been confiscated by the adults, placed in the center of the dining tables and we were served, honest to God, bread and water for lunch. We were tested for Rowing merit badge that afternoon and I bonked during the test and was failed.

 

Scouting is a way for bad little things to happen in a non-threatening and non-permanent way.

 

I also disagree substantially with many of the posters about the other boy who was passed without his notebook. There is a BIG difference between going for Tenderfoot and going for Star Scout. Your son has already had 3 successful Boards of Review. He knows the ropes and knows what is expected. He could well be the Patrol Leader for this other boy and, as such, would be expected to make sure that the other boy was ready including having his notebook.

 

As a Scout advances, the standard of what is expected increases. For example, as a potential Star Scout, if asked the Scout Law, your son would be expected to rattle off "Trustworthy, Loyal, etc." However, if someone is going for Tenderfoot, he might stumble a bit, maybe need a little help. Would it be appropriate for your son to say "He didn't need to know the Oath perfectly, why do I have to? " Same thing here. He is a higher rank and a higher level of performance is expected. I believe that the Board of Review acted properly in showing mercy to the other boy so as not to discourage him and turn him off. Perhaps if the other boy had gone first and your son second, your son would have been passed too. I'm sure that for exactly that reason, the Board had a really difficult time.

 

It sounds as if your son is pretty resilient and you can be proud. I don't believe that anything terribly untoward happened. It is never bad to get training but I'm not sure that more training would have or should have changed the outcome. There are some excellent suggestions by other posters but I wouldn't get too worked up. I certainly would not come in as COR with flags flying and guns blazing telling the Board that they had messed up.

 

I'll bet this. It will be a LONG time before your son forgets something important.

[evmori]

You are correct NeilLup when you state

 

We're not in this Scouting business to give out badges or to produce Eagle Scouts. We're in it to improve citizenship, character and fitness.

 

How is requiring a Scout to bring his handbook to a BOR improving citizenship, character & fitness? There is no requirement that a Scout bring his handbook to a BOR. And what if he brings it & there is nothing signed yet he has completed all the requirements for rank?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[NeilLup]

Hello Ed,

 

"How is requiring a Scout to bring his handbook to a BOR improving citizenship, character & fitness?"

 

Scout Motto - Be Prepared

Scout Oath - mentally awake

Scout Law - Trustworthy

 

It falls under fitness. It the Scout clearly knows that it is an expectation (which this Scout apparently did) and doesn't meet the expectation, then in this case, his mental fitness was less than it might have been. So he gets the opportunity to correct the situation and learn from it.

 

Personally, I believe that if I had been on the board, I would have given him a "conditional pass." We would say that he is passed contingent upon showing his notebook to the board/leaders at the next opportunity and when he does, he is passed with date of rank of the original board. But I don't have a huge problem with giving him a deferral and requiring him to return for a full board. I wasn't there. Perhaps they felt that the Scout's growth was best served by having him come back for a full board.

[NJCubScouter]

TnTScoutMomma, I think your troop's practice of having BOR's only every two months is contributing to the problem here. If you had them on an as-needed basis (or at most, every two weeks) there would not be so much pressure. If a Scout forgot the book, he could just be told "Ok, we'll do it next week when you have the book." Nobody's going to get too upset over that (I hope.)

 

Our troop does not require the book to be present for a BOR -- the Advancement Chair gets a printout of the boy's computerized advancement record before the BOR starts -- but I don't have a big problem with requiring it. It is when you combine the requirement of bringing the book with an excessively high consequence of not bringing it (that is, a two-month wait for another BOR) that there is a problem.njcub

[Eagle92]

Quick question, doesn't the BOR have to intitial in the books when the Scout passes the BOR? I dont' have the latest edition of the handbook easily accessible, but the 9th ed that I used required the BOR to sign off in the handbook. and the 10th ed also has the BOR signing off. So how can a Scout pass a BOR if it is not signed off in his handbook?

 

 

I was always taught that the Scout's handbook WAS the official record for the Scout, except for Eagle which has the separate application, and that if the BOR didn't intial the book, it is not official that he has pass the BOR. The advancement forms that everyone turns in is for council records only. I might add that when we caught errors in the council's records, for those copies of the advancement reports we couldn't find, we used the Scout's handbook to get the required information.

 

 

I know every unit has their own culture, and i have heard of both BORs as needed and once a month. But I never heard of every other month, or once a quarter as in another thread.

[Stosh]

Because there is no requirement for a book at the BOR, we don't require it. The boys are encouraged to look their best and wear their uniform if they have one. The PL's work closely with the advancment ASM so there is no real need for having a book around. The PL initials the requirement, but turns in a report to the ASM at the same time. This double bookkeeping goes a long way to resolve any problems in the record keeping. When the boy is ready for advancement, he checks with the ASM to make sure all the requirements are fulfilled (sometimes the # of activities, etc, are not necessarily known to the boy where the software calculates that for him). Then he is to seek out the SM because the last requirement is always the SM conference in the process where I take some time to review his accomplishments, etc. make sure he's psyched up for the BOR and then suggest the boy set up a BOR with the CC. By this time there is no need to check up on the book because the boy has reviewed the process, the PL has reviewed the process, the Advancment ASM has reviewed the process and the SM has reviewed the process. All that the BOR has to do is congratulate the boy on his accomplishment.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

"There is no requirement that a Scout bring his handbook to a BOR. And what if he brings it & there is nothing signed yet he has completed all the requirements for rank?"

 

Ev, as I told BeeDub, there's isn't much in the way of guidance for a BOR. Other than a few things that a BOR CANNOT do, there is little said about anything else. If a troop decides that candidates need to show up in bermuda shorts and AC/DC t-shirts, that's their call.

[evmori]

Yeah I know GW. And that is frustrating!

 

Isn't the Scout's handbook his own personal record of his advancement? Shouldn't the Advancement Chair have the official records? What happens when the Scout loses his book & nothing is signed? Does he fail his BOR?

 

If I was on the BOR, providing we were able to verify this Scout had completed all his rank requirements & everything else was in order, I would have passed him.

 

NeilLup,

Your scenario 1 is a farce!

 

This has nothing to do with fitness. Yeah he forgot his book. Apparently not having his book is more important that what he knows since he didn't pass his BOR. Not a good thing!

 

 

[Vicki]

Ed, I disagree. The scout's book should be the primary source for tracking advancement, the troop's the backup. That's where the first signoffs occur (especially at campouts), not in whatever record the troop is keeping. As we review our records, the initials in the scout's book will almost always trump the records. The book follows the scout from troop to troop (as in Son2's case) and when the advancement person in his old troop failed to forward the records and didn't notify council of his advancement with that troop (or council lost it), well, the book sufficed to get things handled. Scouts are told that they should have two things at meetings - as complete a uniform as possible and their book.

 

IMO, as stated earlier and in agreement with Neil, it's a really good way to teach responsibility in a relatively harmless way. There will be much harsher lessons learned later on.

 

Now, in terms of scheduling BORs, I am completely opposed to a rigid schedule (quarterly, monthly, whatever) unless a troop just can't do it any other way - in which case that troop may need to revisit how good a job it does of integrating adults. Doing it according to a rigid schedule just postpones advancement for the convenience of adults - hmmm, a tad bit of putting the cart before the horse. IMNSHO, of course.

 

Vicki

 

 

[TnTScoutMomma]

Lisabob said, There are times when you have to take a step back from the question of "should they do this?" and instead, ask the question "how should we respond to this?" --- Those two questions are very closely relatedJ For me the should they answer was what I needed to know so I could determine how to respond.

 

We have no plans to make a big stink, appeal or blow it out of proportion (never did). As far as our son is concerned its over and done. However, as a leader in this troop I do need to consider our process. Which is why I came here to this forum, to see if I was off-base in my thinking.

 

I dont just disagree with the decision as a mother, but as a leader in the organization. The situation has just made us think about things weve not considered before. And regardless of whether it was my boy or not I believe if the point of the book is to prove what hes done and he can accomplish that without it then why make a big deal of it.

 

NeiLup you sure have quite an imagination; I cant picture any of those scenarios ever happening But I sure hope you are correct in this statement, I'll bet this. It will be a LONG time before your son forgets something important. But, he is human after all, and a teenage boy to boot so Im not holding my breath.

 

Crew21_Adv, You said, Yes. Both Scouts and adults should have a baseline of what is expected. What could result in a "Go vs. No Go" decision. I think this summarizes what Im looking for .. what are reasonable expectations and what SHOULD result in a go or no go decision?

 

It would be helpful if the BSA guidelines werent so ambiguous!