Am I over-reacting? follow-up

[John-in-KC]

FScouter,

 

I don't know the mind of this young man. I'm hundreds of miles away. I'm distressed at the reported actions of his father.

 

gcook gave us a situation, and then (it's a gift) offered us update and feedback. I think what Barry said passed the common sense test. Looking further down the thread, I think what loud snoring bear said (don't do anything else alone anymore) also makes sense. Matthew 18 (the verses where Christ says do all discipline, after the first outreach, under the eyes of witnesses) applies.

 

Paul gives us an insight on his jurisdiction and how he would react professionally.

 

Can this young man continue the trail? Possibly. I certainly see an issue of TRUST both in the bribe and the blackmail. Joke or not, these are not times where this kind of joke is overly funny. I see a question of LOYALTY as well.

 

This deserves a further Scoutmaster conference, but an observed one. Then comes the toughest part. Gcook has to make a gut-check decision: Is the youth simply acting idiotically immature, or does the situation merit a phone call to the SE?

 

gcook, know you're in my prayers.

[Docrwm]

FScouter said: "What is "ready for Eagle"? A boy is not "ready" for Eagle until he has successfully completed all of the requirements for Eagle. The boy in this case is making a proposal for a project, one of several requirements to earn the Eagle rank. Is the project proposal acceptable or is it not? So the kid made a stupid, maybe terrorist threat, that has nothing to do with the quality of his project proposal. If the board of review later wants to turn him down for the Eagle rank, more power to them. But it should be done at the board of review, not three steps before! "

 

I don't claim to be as experienced as many here. I thought, THOUGHT, that being an Eagle was supposed to involve more than merely X # of merit badges and Y # of projects. Sorry if I was wrong. Perhaps this is an instance in which allowing for more CHARACTER development BEFORE trying to go before the board of review is appropriate.

 

"The foremost responsibility of an Eagle Scout is to live with honor. To an Eagle Scout, honor is the foundation of all character. He knows that 'a Scout is trustworthy' is the very first point of the Scout Law for a good reason. An Eagle Scout lives honorably, not only because honor is important to him, but because of the vital significance of the example he sets for other scouts. Living honorably reflects credit on his home, his church, his troop, and his community. May the white of the Eagle Badge remind you to always live with honor."(This message has been edited by docrwm)

[FScouter]

"I thought, THOUGHT, that being an Eagle was supposed to involve more than merely X # of merit badges and Y # of projects."

 

Yes, Eagle is a LOT more than merit badges and a project. How do you know what the Scout IS if you roadblock him while he is a Life Scout? Giving the go-ahead to start a project is NOT granting the rank. Let him complete ALL the requirements before judging his merit. Only then are you able to tell him he did NOT meet the requirements.

[jmwalston]

"Yes, Eagle is a LOT more than merit badges and a project. How do you know what the Scout IS if you roadblock him while he is a Life Scout? Giving the go-ahead to start a project is NOT granting the rank. Let him complete ALL the requirements before judging his merit. Only then are you able to tell him he did NOT meet the requirements."

 

This seems to present a Catch-22 to me. It seems that if the issue is sidestepped now, then the impression made is that the incident doesn't warrant scrutiny later. Waiting to address it after all requirement are completed could lead to the argument of "If it was such a big deal, why wasn't something said or done about it at the time?" These forums contain several cases of debate on whether a Scout could be considered worthy after the fact, and many have stated the opinion that the problem should have been addressed at the time. As to the fine print of the matter here, it is just about approval to start an Eagle project. IMO, it should be disapproved as written, as it contains goals that are not obtainable is I perceive, mainly, his ability to demonstrate leadership unless he is directing others to leave the money under the chair or inject the cyanide.

[Eagledad]

I think this situation became very complicated by the reaction of the father. There is something strange about all to me. So with only the information provided to us, this is where I ask the would scout if he really thinks he is ready to be an Eagle. I have done this many times, I first ask the scout to define the kind of person worthy of this position (in this case the Eagle) and we discuss that. Then I ask him if he is that person and up to role modeling that person. Then I leave it there for the scout to mill over. 99% if the time the scout makes the right decision and in most cases, they set a plan to reach the goal. It doesnt really matter if we think these actions are worthy of an Eagle Scout. It only matters what the Scout thinks because he has to live up to that expectation the rest of his life. If he is not ready, we just can't tell him that, he has to believe it himself. Otherwise he won't feel motivated to change and develop himself toward that stature.

 

Barry

 

[Docrwm]

jmwalston said: "This seems to present a Catch-22 to me. It seems that if the issue is sidestepped now, then the impression made is that the incident doesn't warrant scrutiny later. Waiting to address it after all requirement are completed could lead to the argument of "If it was such a big deal, why wasn't something said or done about it at the time?" These forums contain several cases of debate on whether a Scout could be considered worthy after the fact, and many have stated the opinion that the problem should have been addressed at the time. As to the fine print of the matter here, it is just about approval to start an Eagle project. IMO, it should be disapproved as written, as it contains goals that are not obtainable is I perceive, mainly, his ability to demonstrate leadership unless he is directing others to leave the money under the chair or inject the cyanide."

 

Thank you. You expressed my concerns and thoughts better than I did and I appreciate it very much. I tire of rulebook folks that miss the ENTIRE point of the process - Character Development. Has this child demonstrated the Character necessary to even be legitimately considered for advancement? I believe that ALL actions of our Scouts should be a part of the ongoing review.

 

On another note, as someone that has been directed by the Court to make a determination of dangerousness, I can state that the specificity of the threat makes the dangerousness level go up significantly. I can also state that the reaction of the parent is profoundly disturbing to me and also seriously increases the degree of dangerousness posed in the situation. IMHO, this is not a youth for whom the issue of Eagle should even be on the radar at this point. Perhaps in the future if he demonstrates significant changes and growth but at present he needs to be seen as soon as possible by a professional equipped by training and expertise in making the determination I have touched on here. Many incidents like this one appear in the records for the youth involved in Columbine and each was ignored, written off, dealt with at an inappropriate level by ill-equipped adults, or even encouraged. Failure to intervene appropriately is a disservice to this youth and to those around him - IMHO.

[Rythos]

Do you see even the remote possibilty of situation being dangerous? If so why not follow the established procedures for that situation. Without the manual in front of me I believe you should contact the SE, provide all the information available, and let him/her make the determination on the need or not to envolve law enforcement etc..... If I recall correctly training seems to indiciate that it is not your job to make a determination on what should happen to the scout, but to determine if you feel someone is in danger and contact the SE.

 

The scout needs to be responsible for his actions, its clear the father is not interested in making that happen. You need to follow the BSA procedures in order to protect yourself, your unit, and ultimately this Scout. Let the SE make the determination, it is after all what we pay them for.

 

Rythos

[Kudu]

Wingnut writes:

 

Call his bluff... Approve his project and see if anything turns up under your chair. If you find a pay check call the cops ASAP. If not, it must have been bad humor after all.

 

Call me old-fashioned, but society should have zero-tolerance for Wingnut's "If not" scenario.

 

This Scout needs to get serious.

 

Use the BSA's new "Patrol Method Adult Directing Leadership Style" to force him to watch biographies of his favorite comics, then have him work on requirements 1-4 of Public Speaking Merit Badge to be performed as stand-up at a local comedy club.

 

If he gets jeered off the stage then he will have learned a valuable lesson: Bad humor is no laughing matter.

 

Kudu

 

[John-in-KC]

Kudu,

 

That was the worst attempt at sarcasm on a serious matter I have seen in the last month.

 

The young man is at best possessed of a seriously immature sense of humor. At the worst, he's bad news waiting to happen. The bribe represents a serious question of Trustworthiness. The blackmail represents as serious question of Loyalty and Friendliness.

 

Only gcook can decide if the layer after a supervised SM Conference gets made: A call to the SE. As I said, I'm praying for wisdom and discernment on gcook's part.

[Bob White]

John, I am obviously missing something here. What is it you see the SE being able to do in this situation?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gold Winger]

Back in the day when I wore either blue or zebra stripes, I worked many non-scholastic games. You'd see the same coaches week after week and some were kidders. Before every game you'd meet with the coaches and say "Hi, do you undersand the rules . . . blah, blah" Fairly often, a coach whom you'd seen every week for the past month would say something like, "I left the envelope with your bribe with the scorekeeper," the other coach would then say, "Hey, I thought that you were taking my bribes." I'd respond with something witty like, "I'll weigh the two envelopes and the heaviest one will get the win." We'd all laugh, the game would start and they'd scream and yell the same as usual about every call.

 

However, if one had slipped me a note that said what that Scout's note said, I would have called the authorities immediately.

[Kudu]

 

The real problem here is that big government does not allow Americans a free market in which a corporation that represents Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting is allowed to compete with a corporation headed by a millionaire whose vision of Scouting is to lure boys indoors to sit in front of computer screens "side-by-side with adults of character."

 

The tedious paperwork in question is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting.

 

Do any of you guys who get all weepy about Eagle Projects pay your children to go to church?

 

This is the same thing:

 

Paying Scouts with badges for their leadership is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting.

 

Paying Scouts with badges for public service is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting.

 

A program that allows a Scout past 2nd Class (let alone Eagle) without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting.

 

I suspect that if any of you guys had to tag along with this Life Scout on Baden-Powell's "Eagle" expedition of 50 miles in wild country to hold your stupid "supervised SM Conference," you would understand how Baden-Powell's program of outdoor adversity molds character much differently than just having the correct indoor opinion about humor.

 

John-in-KC writes:

 

The young man is at best possessed of a seriously immature sense of humor.

 

I first required stand-up comedian performances for Public Speaking Merit Badge when one of my Patrol Leaders was suspended from school for "sexual harassment" and forced to take sensitivity training as the result of a bad joke in class.

 

I'd match his Scout Spirit against ANY of you guys.

 

Gold Winger writes:

 

However, if one had slipped me a note that said what that Scout's note said, I would have called the authorities immediately.

 

Paper is the point. Baden-Powell designed Scouting to be a "non-scholastic" game. You know, no tedious paperwork like back when Scouting was as popular with boys as sports.

 

Kudu

 

"One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction."--Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918

 

[NJCubScouter]

Bob, I know you asked the question of John and not me, but what I see the SE being able to do in this situation is to give the Scoutmaster advice on what to do, when a Scout gives an adult a document containing a literal, specific, direct (though doubtless "joking") death threat. We haven't exactly been able to do that in this forum -- there have been about 15 different, conflicting answers. If this happened to me, I wouldn't be completely sure as to how to handle it either. I actually liked the answer you gave in the original thread, but I'm not sure it's enough. I would want to get advice from an authoritative person. This is a bizarre situation and I don't think you can find the answer in a book.

[jr56]

This is so bizarre. I would without emotion explain to the young man that an Eagle application is no place for a joke. Remove it or I won't sign. Say the same thing to the clueless dad. End of story.

 

[nldscout]

gcook1 and others,

 

If you do anything except call the authorities, and this gets out that this boy threatened a leader, what do you think the rest of your parents are going to say.

 

As I see this, this is clearly a legal issue that there is no backing down on, especially in light of his Fathers attitude.

 

What are you going say when he does this or something else next time?