Unqualified Eagle Candidate

[FScouter]

"I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this policy, but it does seem to be the policy and to be pretty doggone clear."

 

A policy has a good chance of being ambiguous and unclear if we want it to be something else.

[evmori]

Let's not get confused here! Active as far as being a member of a unit is different than serving actively. According to the BSA, active as far as being a member goes means registered. Serving actively is not the same thing & is not defined (I don't think) by the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[theysawyoucomin']

This would all be so easy if the boys just showed up and did the program.

 

We ague endlessly over what active is, some here don't like the idea of Eagles who fall off the turnip truck and suddenly want the award even though half the first class scouts don't know who he is, some of us would morph the english language just to have kids get what they want.Parents suing to get their little boy an award that is supposed to mean something.

 

Why can't the boys make time for Scouting and why can't we tell them no?

 

What are we afraid of?

[NeilLup]

On another list to which I belong, there is a story of a man who is getting his Eagle at age 50. The story is here

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/custom/today/bal-to.eagle19aug19,0,7356468.story

 

It's a neat story but, to summarize, he gave his finished paperwork to his Scoutmaster who never submitted it. But here is a key section from the article.

 

"Some say there comes a moment in a boy's life when he must make a choice - a

choice that defines his character, or reveals it. For better and worse, Bill

Ehmann approached his biggest disappointment as he felt a Scout should. As he

remembers it, he submitted all his paperwork. But the Scoutmaster, for reasons

of his own, failed to submit it promptly.

 

The Scout Law says a boy should be both obedient and cheerful - trusting

those above him, never grousing at hardship. Ehmann never followed up.

 

That Scoutmaster from long ago, when reached this week, remembered Billy

Ehmann. And what he recalls is a shy boy who had made some grammatical errors in

his report, been told of the problem and failed to return with corrections.

 

"I can't chase after every boy," William Endres, 80, said from his home in

Parkville. "An Eagle Scout has to take the reins. I wish he had." They've never

discussed the matter.

 

Jonathan Brown, an Eagle Scout himself, guesses the truth lies somewhere in

the middle. "You have a Scoutmaster who's a stickler, which is his right. You

have a boy who's quiet. My guess? It's a tragedy of miscommunication."

 

 

Note the comment from from Mr. Endres who was Mr. Ehrmann's Scoutmaster "I

can't chase after every boy. An Eagle Scout has to take the reins."

 

Those of us who earned Eagle Scout back then would note that things were different then. Standerson, I suspect that's about when you got your Eagle award. Mine was a bit earlier.

[John-in-KC]

Neil,

 

In reading the thread, I noted Mr Anderson had already written off the issue of active in the Troop. The question I was working to was the qualifying service for the Position of Responsibilitty.

 

As I read that statement (and note it's not in Requirements nor in ACP&P (as I read through it last night)), POR time is on its face evaluated to be satisfactory unless (my emphasis) the SM removes the youth for cause. The SM has until the Scout qualifies in time to make that decision.

 

Like you, I'm not thrilled with that idea. Even so, I think it can be worked through. It's called active mentorship ... by youth leaders (SPL/ASPL), by the ASMs, by Committee folk who have specific responsibilities (equipment coordinator for Quartermaster, keeper of Troopmaster and Treasurer for Scribe), and finally by the SM.

 

These youth are having their first taste of serious responsibility. They're going to be in Quadrants I and II of the leadership grid model. It's our job to provide that mentoring.

 

In the specific case of the young man Mr Anderson writes about, someone has to go back and carefully scrub the books. They need to look for POR time after the Scout earned his Life. If six months creditable time is there, this Troop had better realize they're probably going to lose an appeal, if it goes that far.

 

Of course, if he does not have the qualifying time, he's done.

 

By the way, to NldsScout, thanks Two of the three exceptions I agree with wholeheartedly.

[Eagle92]

In reference to appeals, IF an Eagle candidate appeals to council or especially national, they will side of caution and grant the candidate his request. This is not only for those candidates who are disabled or didn't get the EBOR withing the 3 month window after their 18th birthday, but in any case. Don't remember the specifics as it was a while back, but one candidate challenged his SM's decision to say he wasn't ready for his EBOR and not sign off the requirement.When the scout went through the EBOR anyway and was denied becasue the SM Conf. wasn't signed, he petitioned all the way up to national and got them to overrule the decision. Left a lot of people ticked. Another case that sounds similar to the one originally posted also got petioned all the way up to national and was approved. Also left a lot of people ticked with the district's EBOR chairman stepping down in protest.

[WAKWIB]

standerson:

Please update us sometime down the road, and let us know the outcome of the difficult situation. Any Troop, even ones that try very hard to keep problems from happening, can be faced with this sort of thing. I think this would be especially true with a large, busy Troop. I think that the bigger you get; (not a thing wrong with that BTW) the cracks in the system can get bigger as well.

[ancientdruid]

I am reading your thread on this topic with interest. Our troop has a case of a Scout who basically failed his Eagle Board of Review because of lack of Troop participation the last two years and a devastating lack of Scout spirit in selfish reasoning for this. So what is the National Standard for "Active"? What is the requirement for participation in ones Troop when one is going for Eagle Scout?

[John-in-KC]

Ancient Druid,

 

Welcome to the Forums.

The true source document, the one your District Advancement Chair uses, is "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088" There should be a 2008 printing available.

 

The language below is from a BSA national website, and very closely parallels what is in ACP&P. If there are differences, the printed version governs:

 

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx

 

"Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?

Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

 

1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

 

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position."

 

(Italics denote the quote)

 

As you can see, your Troop does not get to set internal standards.

 

Did I answer your question?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[ancientdruid]

So does that mean that the minimum requirement for an Eagle Scout is to be on the mailing list for the Troop weekly newsletter, to be registered, and not to have been kicked out of the Troop? Even if the Scout has not attended a meeting or activity for two years? (What if they have attended one campout over two years and that's it?)

[OldGreyEagle]

If the scout has not shown up for 2 years, how did he meet the requirements for Eagle?

 

 

[NeilLup]

Hello ancientdruid,

 

Some time when you have several free days, you might read all the back posts in this forum on exactly the topic you have discussed. The gentle question you have very appropriately asked will likely, again, provoke the reaction among posters of raw meat again thrown to wolves with sundry wolves on all sides.

 

To answer what I believe that the National BSA guidelines are for advancement:

 

1) A Troop may not impose, particularly after the fact, percentage attendance requirements on active service, leadership, etc. If the Scout is registered and the Troop is making an effort to stay in touch with the Scout he is meeting the requirement.

2) Also note that the Scout does not need to meet the activity requirement and the leadership requirement in the time immediately before he goes for Eagle Scout. If he met them years ago, while a Life Scout and then becomes much less active for a lengthy period of time, he still has met the requirement of activity and leadership.

3) An extremely important principle is "no surprises." If the Troop would plan to turn the Scout down based on active service or leadership, the Scout should know this well in advance and have an opportunity to address it. A large part of the reason for the rules which can be troubling is the number of cases where a boy has been cruising toward Eagle Scout fat, dumb and happy only at the Board to be told "We don't think that you were sufficiently active." This should never be a surprise to the boy and his parents.

4) A boy does not need to "pass" the Scoutmaster Conference, just participate in it. If the SM thinks he is not ready to become an Eagle Scout, the boy can still demand a Board of Review and it will be granted. There is no guarantee that this Board will approve his Eagle. The Scoutmaster can share with the Board his concerns about the Scout and why he believes that the Scout does not meet the Scout Spirit requirements.

5) If the Scout accepts the Scoutmaster's opinion on his Scout Spirit, the SM should outline what the Scout needs to do to improve and meet the standard. He should be trying to help the Scout.

6) If the boy goes before the Board and is not approved based on Scout Spirit, the board must, in writing, give him the reasons for the non-approval and must list a series of actions which would enable the Scout to meet the standard. This can be a problem or even an impossibility for Scouts who are pushing the age 18 deadline. They must also explain to the Scout his rights to appeal the non-approval first to the local council and then to the National council. If the non-approval for Eagle is based on some percentage attendance requirement imposed by the Troop, it is at one of these appeals that the appeal will be approved and the boy will become an Eagle Scout. However, if the non-approval is based on well founded lack of Scout Spirit, then the appeal will most likely not be successful.

 

This kind of situation seems to happen all the time. It is unpleasant for all concerned. It is particularly unpleasant when the non-approval appears justified but the appeal is approved because the Troop did not substantiate the failure of the Scout to meet the requirements.

[John-in-KC]

Neill's post has a lot of meat on the bones.

 

Short version, thanks to National a bit over a year ago: If you choose to recharter a boy who quit showing up, that's your problem. National expects the unit to be in contact with each registered youth member, be that through Troop meetings, PL/SPL contact, SM contact, or newsletters.

 

Did he complete his time in his POR?

 

Did he complete the 21 MBs he needs for Eagle?

 

Has he performed his Eagle Leadership Service Project such it will pass muster at the EBOR?

 

Does he live the values of the Scout Oath and Law in his daily life?

 

If you answered yes to all those, his next steps are to start his Eagle app according to your Council's local procedures. If the answer is no, he has work to do.

 

Recently I had a youth member we'd not seen in over a year. He was turning 17. A couple of us Scouters went to his home and visited with him. We told him what he needed to do to, if he wanted to earn Eagle. We told his Dad (an Eagle Scout) as well. We told him if he'd work with us, we'd work with him. OTOH, we also told him if he was the invisible man, we weren't going to recharter him at years end, and that he'd have to find another unit. We told him specifically when he'd age out of Boy Scouting, and when he could not finish the 3 long term MBs before aging out.

 

He showed up a couple times, then sank back into quietness. At years' end, we didn't recharter him. We did send him a copy of his records. To my knowledge, he decided (or just didn't) that Eagle wasn't part of who he was.

 

I wish you well. I commend to your SM and CC that they scrub the youth member roster each year at recharter time.