Unqualified Eagle Candidate

[ScoutNut]

What I asked was NOT where does it say a period of 6 months.

 

What I asked was where did YOU get the requirement that it must be totally completed "within/during a six month period"?

 

The requirement states - "serve actively for a period of six months". It does NOT state the 6 months have to be consecutive.

 

From the requirement, it would be perfectly legal for the boy to serve 3 months in one POR, wait 1 year, and then serve another 3 months in another POR.

 

He has then served actively for a period of 6 months.

[evmori]

Eagle is the only rank that is worded "serve actively for a period of six months". Star & Life are worded "serve actively for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility" and "serve actively for six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility".

[Bob White]

What you describe would be serving actively for 6 months within a period of 18 months. That is not what the requirements says.

 

Take for instance the requirement for the Scoutermaster's Key.

"Complete at least 3 years of registered tenure as

a Scoutmaster within a 5-year period.

 

this would allow a person to be a scoutmaster for a year take a year off, be scoutmaster again, take a year off and be scoutmaster again. 3 years in a 5 year period.

 

But the Eagle requiremenst says to serve in one or more offices for a 6-month period, not for 6-months within a (fill in the blank)_____-month period.

 

This is not a secret code, there is nothing confusing, it is a period of time that is 6 moths from beginning to end.

[gcnphkr]

ScoutNut, how do you define "a period"? Is it possible to have a noncontiguous period?

[standerson]

Update: I was just notified that he does not have Camping Merit Badge. Another adult leader is contacting counselors in and out of the troop to find out if they have been approached by the young man.

 

"Active" is the sticking point. Although National defines "active" are registered in the context of being in the troop, I feel "active" means participating in the context of the POR.

 

The POR will be my "give" during the talk with the young man (and his mother). The wording is not cyrstal clear (ative means registered or participating). The camping deficiency is clear and cannot be ignored.

 

 

[Rythos]

Not to channel Bob White, but why does it really matter what you feel active is, as long as he meets the BSA definition?

 

Feel free to tell him he didn't hold the POR long enough, or he doesn't have the right merit badges, but I don't see how you can use your own definition of active as opposed to BSA's in this matter.

 

Rythos

[standerson]

Rythos:

 

It is my opinion the BSA's definition of "active" in the context of the POR means participating.

[eolesen]

"Participating" is not exactly how it is written.

 

"Active" by definition means being registered in his unit, not dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons, and engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis. That doesn't have to be at troop events.

 

Engaged by unit leadership on a regular basis is a far different definition than engaging unit leadership on a regular basis.

 

Tread lightly there. If he was continuously registered, it sounds like he was engaged over the previous 36 months. Not advancing, but engaged.

 

The usual deal breakers for our deathbed Eagles isn't the POR, but the 90-day merit badges (e.g. Personal Management and Family Life). If they're not done 90 days prior to the Scout's 18th birthday, it's already over at that point.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[NeilLup]

At the risk of pouring molten potassium upon the troubled waters:

 

The Troop certainly can turn the Scout down for not performing his Position of Responsibility. However,

 

1) If they turn him down for this and

2) IF the Scout then demands a Board of Review (as is his right) and

3) IF the Board of Review then turns the Scout down (they may not) and

4) IF the Scout then appeals the Board of Review turn down to the local council and

5) IF the council review turns the Scout down and

6) If the Scout then appeals to the National Council

 

7) I believe that the National Council will overturn the turn down and grant the Scout his Eagle

 

If the Scout chooses to appeal, there are three stages. The turn down stands only if it is upheld at each of the three stages.

 

Will he appeal? You have to answer that. One thing that is guaranteed is that if he is required to appeal, he will likely end up with extremely negative feelings toward the Troop and possibly toward Scouting. If he is passed, it may trivialize the Eagle. It's rather lose/lose as far as the Scout is concerned. If you are looking to benefit Scouts (as contrasted with making the adults feel good), then the only Scouts that might benefit by turning this boy down are the other boys in the Troop. And what their reaction will be if he appeals and the appeal is upheld again is something you need to answer.

 

It can, on occasion, be prudent to step back and look at the forest rather than the trees. How does each choice contribute to the citizenship, character and fitness of youth?

 

Camping merit badge is another matter. I might ask why your ASM is checking with counselors. Are you trying to talk them into not working with him or into being particularly difficult? Does he have a signed "blue card?" Who was the counselor that he was assigned to work with at that time? Does anybody even remember or have records? But if he doesn't have Camping before his 18th birthday, he's out of luck.

 

Has he had his Scoutmaster Conference yet? He does NOT have to do that after everything else and he does not need to "pass" the Scoutmaster Conference. I believe that the requirement says that he take part in a Scoutmaster Conference. Arguably, this meeting you are about to have, which includes the Scoutmaster, is a Scoutmaster Conference.

[standerson]

"Participating" is not exactly how it is written.

 

"not exactly" is the same as "a definite maybe"

 

"I might ask why your ASM is checking with counselors. Are you trying to talk them into not working with him or into being particularly difficult?"

 

The more information that can be gathered in this situation, the more accurate the final decision will be. We are trying to find out what, if any, action the young man has taken in order to get the merit badge. I checked my previous posts, didn't see anything to suggest I was trying to be underhanded or trying to back door the young man.

 

 

 

[NeilLup]

"The more information that can be gathered in this situation, the more accurate the final decision will be. We are trying to find out what, if any, action the young man has taken in order to get the merit badge. I checked my previous posts, didn't see anything to suggest I was trying to be underhanded or trying to back door the young man. "

 

Hello,

 

I didn't say you were and I do apologize if I gave that impression. However, I might ask if you want to know what Camping merit badge counselor he is contacting, why not just ask him?

 

To an outsider, it appears that you are checking up on him rather than working with him. Perhaps that's what you want to do.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

[GernBlansten]

Can't see how the scout will be able to complete his camping merit badge in 6 weeks.

I'd do what many have said, sit down with the scout and his mother and do an inventory of his PORs, merit badges, project. Then explain where his deficiencies are and what ones can be mitigated and what ones can't. Then let the scout decide his course of action.

 

Our troop like others here, have an ASM assigned to keep track of our Life to Eagle candidates. That would be me. Once a month, I try to talk to each one to find out where they are, if they need help, and when their birthday is. I remind each one that the Eagle rank is to earned by them, at their own pace, and nobody will do it for them. As they get close to their birthday, I remind them that they may not make it. Of course that is if they show up. If they don't, they don't get the benefit of me bugging them. So far, we have had several death bed Eagles, but no surprises.

[scottteng]

I have a hard time as well with understanding how a Scout made it to life without meeting the 20 nights camping requirement for Camping MB the rest of it is a song and a dance. With camping mb now being offered at summer camps far and wide we will not sign a blue card for it unless the scout in question has his nights in the bag and at least two out of three of his challenges with the third being doable at the camp in question. We camp 10 months per year, summer camp one month and have a leadership trip the other month. That runs to 30 nights per year well over 20 even allowing for the occasional cabin night or missed trip. We have 13 year olds that have close to 100 nights if they are good attenders. Once they have their 20 and get the NB they don't have to go again. Its not like OA that requires nights within the last year.The active thing they will hang you on every time as you are seeing from the other posts. The POR is six months from his Life BOR need to check the records carefully. All of these things may have been completed many years ago and still be valid. We always issue a certificate at the court of honor following each election one for the completed position and one for the new position with the patch. Your side of the appeal won't look so good if he shows up with one of those. You are doing the right thing meet with him and let him make his case and then let him know if you have reservations. Up until the last requirement change it was not stated that the camping nights had to be at a Boy Scout function as well

[John-in-KC]

We're using an awful lot of language here. Let's use the language BSA uses in its own literature

 

Here's some specific language on the POR. It is not included in ACP&P #33088, but it gives some guidance. It is on the Guide for MB Counselors portion of the BSA website:

 

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx

 

"However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position."

 

Then there's the double-edged sword, which I hope few ever have to use:

"If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position."

 

The onus is on the SM, ASMs and any Committee folk who have folios supporting a POR (equipment coordinator for Quartermaster and so on). They overwatch the SPL and ASPL in their leadership of the Troop. If a Scout is not performing to expectations, to me, mentorship kicks in early on. The object is to help the Scout along, not throw him under the bus.

 

The rub, Mr Anderson, is the question: Does this young man have six months creditable time? If he does, you have a freight train coming your way. It's called Appeal. If the Scout is denied a SM Conference, or if he is denied advancement at his EBOR, one of your fun duties is to inform him (and his parents) of his appeal procedures within BSA.

 

Rest assured your District Advancement Chair will take those duties most seriously. He will investigate, and at that point he is assuredly not a friend of the unit. He's a neutral party. If he deems there to be grounds, he can convene a Conference or a BOR at his level (ditto the Council advancement folk). At any point, if a BOR approves advancement, it's a done deal. ACP&P explicitly denies the unit the right of appeal against a decision.

 

What will happen in your case? Don't know, haven't seen the records, haven't seen the Scouts handbook (a source document). Do what is right. You have to look yourself in the mirror after all this is done and respect the man you see. Doing what is right though does not mean the final outcome will go the way your unit expects it to.

 

Advancement Coordinators should have a good working relationship with their District Advancement Chair. It helps when the times get rough.

[NeilLup]

Hello John,

 

I think you synopsized that question from the BSA web site a bit too much. The entire question is:

 

"Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?

Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

 

1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

 

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position."

 

To me, the key point is that it is the unit leader who is responsible for ensuring that Scout is fulfilling the obligations of the assigned leadership position, not the Scout who is responsible retrospectively for convincing the SM and the Board of Review that he did the job. The Scout would seem to have a perfect argument in saying "I was in the job, you didn't remove me, I met the requirements." If the Scout is not removed from his position, it would appear that the only way that the Scout might not have met the requirements were if he were never appointed or elected to a position in the first place.

 

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this policy, but it does seem to be the policy and to be pretty doggone clear.