Insect Study MB: Req to collect insects

[Gold Winger]

What do we really mean by "live"? SNL is "live" but is it living? Live could just mean "in person, right now."

[NJCubScouter]

GoldWinger says:

 

In case you haven't noticed, every time a merit badge is changed, it gets easier. Every time a requirement gets changed, it is to make it easier.

 

I haven't noticed that. Do you have examples? If anything, I have noticed the opposite, especially if you also include rank requirements in there.

 

I realize this is off the subject of the Insect Study MB. On that one, I agree with Packsaddle, the change seems like a good one.

 

[Gold Winger]

Let's see . . . there's Leatherworking, Rifle Shooting, and Wilderness Survival.

 

For advancement there's the number of required knots, signaling and tracking.

 

If I had the inclination, I'd go downstairs and dig through my archives and give you more.

[NJCubScouter]

GoldWinger: Signaling and tracking? Those have not been in the requirements for 35 years. I didn't realize you were thinking back that far. Your use of "Every time" led me to believe you were thinking of more recent changes. Obviously a lot of changes were made in the early 70's (which was during my time as a Scout; I remember learning semaphore to finish First Class and passing younger kids on skill awards at the same time, during the transition between the advancement systems.) I don't know that much about the changes between the mid-70's and the early 2000's. It does seem to me that some of the Eagle-required badges are more difficult, not less, than they were in "my day." I don't know about the specifics regarding the other badges you mention, although I do know that Leatherworking now seems to be a "standard" summer camp badge that all the boys seem to get in their first or second summer, which I don't think was the case "back then." I also know that Wilderness Survival is regarded (at least in my son's troop and at the camp they usually go to) as a difficult badge that few Scouts go for, but I don't know how the requirements have changed over time.

 

I'd also say that for the lower ranks, if you compare the era of Skill Awards to today, the requirements are more difficult and (more importantly) more balanced and comprehensive. So it kind of depends on how you look at this, but I think "Every time" is, at best, an exaggeration.

[GaHillBilly]

Whew! I don't agree with Packsaddle on lots of things, but this is one where I'm in complete agreement: reliable species identification is often very hard, and often got wrong.

 

The sarcastic response offered by uz2bnowl,

 

"for my iggggnoorince I never earned the merit badge or I may have known that. My low brow view is that there are good bugs and bad bugs.

 

Pack, how do you bear to share the planet with us cretins?"

 

is, I'm afraid all too typical. My son was told to 'shut up and learn', after pointing out that a stand of river cane (probably Arundinaria gigantea) was just that, and not "sugar cane" as the adult leader had told them. He'd earlier pointed out that Chinese privet was not, in fact, "boxwood" as they'd been taught. He shut up, and stayed quiet through all the mis-identifications that followed, including sweet gum as a maple!

 

The problem is not confined to the merit badges. I would be willing to bet big money that, out of 100 Scouters who've taught the '10 native plant' identifications, less than 5 of them have done so correctly. Few amateur naturalists can distinguish oak, pine, or hickory species at a glance. Sparrows, hawks, warblers and other birds offer the same problem. And, it appears that in the case of salamanders, DNA testing may be needed to verify species!

 

But, it's worse than that: I've seen Scouters confuse lizards and salamanders, call privet hedge native, and ID tracks from 5' away as "raccoon", even though skunks, possums, muskrats, beaver, and mink were all known to be present in the area! But, all this sharing oftheir ignorance -- and then being offended when a question is raised -- seriously shortchanges the Scouts!

 

In my own area I'm working on a list, with photos, of easy-to-identify plant species for local Scouters to use. In my area, the list includes

+ flowering dogwood Cornus florida (bark, berries, flowers, form)

+ willow oak Quercus phellos (leaves)

+ eastern red cedar Juniperus virginiana (foliage, form, bark)

+ hornbeam Carpinus caroliniana (habitat, trunk form, bark)

+ sycamore Platanus occidentali (bark)

+ hackberry Celtis occidentalis bark

+ tulip poplar Liriodendron tulipifera (leaves, flowers)

+ shagbark hickory Carya ovata) (bark, form)

+ river cane! Arundinaria gigantea (form, leaves, sheaths, habitat)

+ red bud Cercis canadensis (leaves, flowers, form)

+ box elder Acer negundo (leaves, bark, form, sometimes seeds)

+ poison ivy Toxicodendron radicans (leaves, vine form, ground form, berries)

+ poison oak Toxicodendron pubescens (leaves, habitat, bush form, berries)

+ virginia creeper Parthenocissus quinquefolia (leaves, vine form)

+ winged elm Ulmus alata (excrescences on twigs & small branches)

+ sweet gum Liquidambar styraciflua (leaves, fruit balls)

 

For other oaks, beeches, hickories, elms, & pines, I'm simply teaching "oak", "beech", "hickory", etc.

 

I wonder is this is not an appropriate service that should be offered in all areas of the country?

 

GaHillBilly

[Eagletrek]

Wow GaHB for someone so meticulous when it comes to "detailed identification" I'd call you an amateur if you identified all oaks as "oaks." A Red Oak and a Bur Oak sure don't look the same.

[Gold Winger]

I'm so glad that I keep my life simple. To me there are trees with leaves and trees without leaves. For critters there are cute ones (suqirrels and chipmunks) and pests (deer and racoons). PITA birds (they crap on my car) and cool birds (hawks and iggles).

[GaHillBilly]

Goldwinger, I can only hope you never work on outdoor skills with any Scouts. Somehow, I feel the common B-P quote (there's a right way and a wrong way to tie a know, and a Scout should know the right way!) is pertinent here!

 

 

 

Eagletrek, the problem that it's more complicated than you suggest. To start with, the bur oak -- a member of the white oak group -- is not common in my area (N. Ga) so it would not be a good choice for a list of plants Scoutmasters could ID in my area. But, to suggest that one can ID the "red oak" sort of misses the point, because 'red oaks' are a group that includes over 25 species

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Quercus_species#Section_Lobatae]

. . . and at least 4 that are called "red oaks" by common name.

[http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch (search by 'Common name' for "red oak"]

 

So, if you were to teach plant ID here, you'd have to look long and hard to find a bur oak. But red oaks are still a problem, at least for me. There are at least 6 red oaks common in this area:

+ Black oak Quercus velutina

+ Northern red oak Quercus rubra

+ Pin oak Quercus palustris

+ Scarlet oakQuercus coccinea

+ Southern red oak Quercus falcata

+ Turkey oak Quercus laevis

 

What simple process or key structure would you suggest, to enable a botanically untrained Scoutmaster -- or even less trained camp counselor -- to not only distinguish these correctly, but to teach 11 - 13 year old Scouts to do so?

 

Here's one of the better simple keys:

http://www.arborday.org/trees/whattree/WhatTree.cfm?ItemID=E6A

But, if you try to run out the 4 oaks I collected yesterday . . . the ID depends on acorns, none of which are currently available nor even common on any of the oaks in the park this year!

 

I can quickly teach a half-way observant Scout to recognize a flowering dogwood or a hackberry by bark and form, even in winter. But, how ya gonna do that with those six red oaks? What's likely to happen instead is that your erstwhile Scouting botanist is likely to teach his Scouts to ID whatever sharp lobed, bristle-tipped oak is common in his area as a "red oak". If he's lucky, he'll even be half-right! But it will only be luck.

 

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

[Knight]

My son worked very long and very hard last year to collect, mount and correctly classify / name 50 insects along with all of the other requirements.

 

He saw the new requirements and said he was glad he completed his insect study merit badge under the old requirements.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

" (there's a right way and a wrong way to tie a know, and a Scout should know the right way!)"

 

I know how to tie many knows. What's that have to do with trees? I'm the know guy, we have a tree guy, we also have a fish guy and a critter guy. Big deal.

[GaHillBilly]

Goldwinger, if you know knots, and restrict yourself to that . . . I think that's great.

 

The problem is Scouting is about the outdoors. B-P's reasons are ones I can't accept: I don't worship nature; I don't believe in the 'church of the outdoors'; I'm not a Wiccan / nature worshiper; and I certainly don't accept the 19th C ideas about the sublimity of nature*. The fact is, I don't know *why* the outdoors matter so much. I have my suspicions and theories, but I don't *know*.

 

But, it's still there.

 

I also don't think nature is just a place for an ordeal. I don't think the Pioneering MB should be primarily about survival; I don't think the 20 mile Hiking MB is supposed to be, first of all, HARD! And, I don't think the Insect Study MB should be simply about laboring methodically at a difficult bit of natural history.

 

I know, from a variety of experiences, that interest in the particularities of nature -- the orange-wooded and weird fruited osage orange; the buzzing, swarming ruby-throated hummingbirds just inches from your face; the brilliant colors of a newly shed corn snake; the intelligent, almost human face of a jumping spider or the horrible fascination of a Shelob-bodied orb weaver consuming prey; the sight of a newborn fawn hiding helplessly in the grass -- these experiences, if we give them to young boys, are remembered for a lifetime.

 

So, GW, if a Scout leader doesn't love and know nature, in its particularities, he cannot give Scouts these experiences. I can't help but feel that a living room troop -- all visits to features, amusements, football games and other ticketed venues -- isn't a *real* Scout troop, any more than a troop that accepts bogus rank advancement and and MBs isn't a real troop.

 

If what you know is knots, I'm glad you stick to that. But, I'm not sure it's enough; I think you and every Scout leader needs to know more.

 

Unfortunately, the amount of knowledge needed to be an effective and prepared teacher of the skills through First Class is rather daunting. B-P came prepared, by his past history and experience. Some other leaders are similarly prepared. But most are not.

 

For myself, I'm trying to think how to make the unique local particularities of nature more accessible, and easier to learn, for local leaders so they can *really* teach the boys something about nature "the right way"!

 

And, in contrast to you, I think it IS a "big deal".

 

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

 

* Take a look at some paintings from the 'Hudson River School' if you want to see what I mean:

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/hudsonriver.html(This message has been edited by GaHillBilly)

[packsaddle]

Heh, heh, In case anyone is a bit confused, I just found this photo of GaHillBilly:

http://www.ski.org/Vision/Eyepage/Images/jumping_spiderB.jpg

 

explains a lot.

[Gold Winger]

Almost forgot, there are three types of rocks: big rocks, little rocks and ones that hit you in the head. Big rocks can become little rocks but little rocks rarely become big rocks.

 

My life is simple, I like to keep it that way.

[GaHillBilly]

Packsaddle, that was my wedding photo!

 

My beard and hair are shorter (and thinner) now.

 

GaHillBilly(This message has been edited by GaHillBilly)

[anarchist]

kill a few bugs??? heck, I wish they'd bring back taxidermy...

 

 

and packsaddle ...that hain't a picher of GaHillBilly...but I am sure its my wife's twin sister!

 

 

fifty "bugs" is not a great loss...and scouts do not have to come close to "pinning" "pretty bugs" if they want to remain politcally correct...They can stick (sorry) with flys, beetles, spiders, skeeters, bees, hornets, wasps, grasshoppers...on and on- and truely, unless you have a way to view photos in 3 dimentions you miss so much.

 

The engineering and motor functions of insects alone are wonderful to explore. Then there's a "bugs" place in the ecosystem, its reason for being... what it "does for a living" but you can't really appreciate these from a photo.

 

close up views and manipulation these bugs - the close study of mandibles, eye structure, wings, legs, "hairs",segments, body patterns help to understand what "bugs" are.

 

And as other said, it is not a required MB...

 

sure wish I could go hunting or fishing today.

 

anarchist