Eagle BOR--kid was hardly ever there.

[GernBlansten]

...in my best 'talking to dog' voice, "bad Gern, bad, bad Gern".

 

Now you're channeling my wife Pack!

 

Our unit hatched another Eagle scout tonight. Second this year. My seventh since taking over the role of Eagle advisor in our unit 3 years ago.

 

This one was a deathbed too. Finished his project two weeks before his 18th. Been a busy summer for him, and we finally had his BOR tonight. Heads off to college next week.

 

He was pretty active in his early years. Dad become the SM for a spell. Got to life by 14. Not a real leader. Did the basic requirements. Didn't like camping but did it when he HAD to. Got elected to OA. Did the ordeal. Never the SPL, never even wanted to be one. Kinda a bookworm kid, wall flower. 4.5 GPA. Honor student. Definitely not your Norman Rockwell scout. But he's a great kid. Kid? Right, young man. Very mature. Smart. Courteous. Kind. Obedient. All that stuff. Eagle stuff? You bet. Passed the BOR with flying colors. I'm proud of him. So is his dad.

[theysawyoucomin']

 

 

Suffice it to say, it is a very good thing his passion was firefighting and not Scouts.

 

If he had missed as many firefighting classes as he did Troop and Patrol events he would have never been certified a firefighter.

 

As a kid I earned the Arrow of Light. Joined a Troop, after about eight months in I contracted pleurisy.

After I could breathe again, was told by the Doc that I could get it again very easily. Camping in the cold was not suggested. I didn't know how serious it was, I just knew it was about 4 weeks before I could breathe without pain. Only learned later that people die from it. Ben Franklin almost died from it, Ringo Starr had it,Enrico Caruso,"the singer" did die from it. Never knew anybody else personally that had it.

 

Parents were going through a divorce that made WW2 look like a small skirmish. There was not alot of parental support for Scouting when they were doing everything short of killing each other.

 

Biggest downfall was the Troop I was in folded up shop. Had no feeder pack. The other Troop in town was nothing like the Troop I came from. I opted not to join it.

 

So, do I wish I stayed with it? Sure. Do I hold the Eagle Award and the Patrol Method in high regard? Sure.

Do I bust my tail to work with the Adults to give the kids the best support they can get? Sure. Do I look out for those kids whose home isn't supporting Scouting? It's my job.

 

This kid could have given back to the Troop. Could have mentored boys like he was mentored. He could have been important in the life of a boy younger than him. Could have taken 10% of all that effort he used other places, doing other things, and made sure some 12 year old had a 16 year old to look up to. Maybe he could have done something to make a boy who was dropping stay in. We'll never know.

 

I think I have a card in my wallet that says something about being important in the life of a boy. I got it at some BSA training period.

Scouts can be important in the lives of other Scouts.

 

He could have been the SPL again (or PL) after doing a mediocre job at 14, could have done a great job at 16. He could have advised the next 14 or 15 year old boy away from the rocks and shoals in that POR.

 

There could be some kid in our Troop that will miss him. Some kid that might say, "Todd taught me that." There is no such Scout.

This kid is leaving town, his picture will be up on the wall in our Scout room for as long as there is a Troop. Right now we are 84 years old. I hope we go for another 84 years. The young kids will see him up on the wall. So will the adults.

 

I could give a wit less what he does from now on. He wasn't being looked at for what he will do in the future.

 

I didn't spend alot of time in college. The VEAP program for veterans was not going to keep anybody in school very long. I have an AAS in Civil Engineering Tech. I didn't shoot for a 2.0. I took 7 classes one semester,worked at Hess for minimum wage and was a Sergeant in the Marine Reserves. I got 7 B's. I did not think anybody would hire somebody that had a 2.0

 

In the Marine Corps perfection was the goal. Excellence was tolerated. People used their leisure time to get their 3 mile run time down to 18 minutes so they could get a perfect score on the fitness test. People focused on shooting so they could strive for high expert. On the pull up bar, when you can't do another we always ask for, " One for the'Corps ,one for Chesty Puller, one more for yourself".

 

This ain't the 'Corps by a longshot. But every time I see a Scout I ask him for more. More so that he may experience life to the fullest. I don't demand more that would be over bearing, celebrate the good and suggest more.

Within Scouting for the past 3 years there has been nothing to celebrate with this kid. And to think I'm the idiot that asked him to come back. I placed the Eagle workbook inside his storm door and called him and asked him for more.

 

All of you didn't have to go to Wood Badge. You wanted more. you wanted more tools to serve the boys. Heck you can get all the knots and serve in any "frontline" position you want without Wood Badge, but you wanted more.

 

Calico, Our SM is an Eagle. He didn't want to promote this kid but there was nothing that he could point to where the Scout did not do the minimum. So much for pedestal theory.

 

If the Doomsdayers are correct, life will be much harder tomorrow than it is today. Isn't it time the mediocrity stopped? Are we helping kids by lowering the bar?

 

I don't believe we did this kid one bit of good by awarding him this award. We didn't do the Scouts that are watching one bit of good either.

 

He'll get his Eagle and all is right with his world.

 

Oh, and that cold weather camping I missed because of pleurisy. I've been to Mountain Warfare Training at Bridgeport Calif in December, CW Training at Camp Ripley Minn. in December, above the Artic Cirle in Norway twice and a weekend BSA Okpik in the Southern Adirondacks... I wanted more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

Robert Browning

[Bob White]

"Our SM is an Eagle. He didn't want to promote this kid but there was nothing that he could point to where the Scout did not do the minimum.

 

So let me see if I have this correct. Neither you or the scoutmaster wanted to see this scout advance EVEN THOUGH neither of you could find a requirement he had not met.

 

How awful for you. A Scout met all the requirements from the BSA for a BSA award. That is so sad. He didn't meet your personal standards but you had to advance him anyway because-shame on him- he met all the requiremnents.

 

Well no wonder you are so upset about this. I cannot imagine how he got away with such a thing.

 

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Naw Bob, when the Dist. Adv Chair asked him if he would do anything different he said no.

 

It was perfect......I heard Frank Sinatra sing, "And now the end is near.....regrets I had a few...to few to mention"

 

 

It was beautiful, man it was just beautiful.

 

 

Really we just saved the people that would have listened to his appeal some time. And we in the Troop wasted too much time on this poser already.

 

Keep the personal IMcoming I love the similar stories I'm getting.

[evmori]

So he passed his EBOR?

[OldGreyEagle]

The boy was good enough to receive Scout (whether its a rank or not), Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star and Life. The troop must not have had any reservations on the work the youth did for those ranks, because they were bstowed on the youth. Now, for Eagle, the bar gets raised? Where was the regard for what is a Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star and Life scout? Is Eagle the only rank that matters? That truly has to be earned?

 

Is Eagle is the only rank that requires work above and beyond the minimal requirements?

 

What life lessons were learned by the scout as he floated thorugh, getting credit for POR's, not being "active"?

 

Do you have similar youth in the Troop's Advancement Pipeline? What is your plan to assure this doesnt happen again? Perhaps it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness

[GernBlansten]

Uz2b,

Do you have similar problems with scouts who obtain eagle by say 15? Have those scouts demonstrated the same commitment to the program as your 18 year old who waited?

Should eagle only be awarded to scouts who show a full pull commitment to the program? All the way from scout to eagle, all the way from crossover to the eve of their 18th B-day?

[NeilLup]

The "problem" seems to be almost always the same.

 

1) There is a boy who is very active in Scouting up through Life Scout and about age 14. He is very close to Eagle Scout at that point.

2) He then is lured away by the siren song of girls, cars, high school, peer pressure, etc. and either never shows up or does so very rarely.

3) In hopes that he will return, the Troop keeps him on the roll as an active member. Perhaps his parents pay his dues for the year and perhaps the Troop is one which does not require that reregistering members pay each year.

4) A few months (weeks, days) before his 18th birthday, the boy returns and wants to complete his Eagle award. He does so a short period of time before his 18th birthday.

5) His Eagle Board of Review occurs after he is 18. The statement is always made "He is 18, so we cannot require him to do more."

6) We hear about it at that point on this site from the current leadership of the unit. They have no current knowledge of the boy and want to turn him town for Eagle for (pick one ) not being sufficiently active immediately prior to the EBOR, not giving back to Scouting, poor character for not being active, etc.

7) There is the weeping and the gnashing of teeth about the Eagle being devalued, the value of Eagle being diminished, the fact that none of the current Scouts know the boy, etc.

 

If I had a dollar for each one of these that I have read about, I could retire a wealthy man.

 

OGE asks some very good questions and makes some very good suggestions. I can only suggest to any unit that really wants to draw the line that they should either strike the boy from the rolls at reregistration time and require him to request membership again when he is close to 18 with the clear intention of likely not granting the request or transfer him to "associate membership" (I believe that status still exists) again with the idea of requiring him to request active membership and likely having that request not granted.

 

I then respectfully ask who benefits from this type of Horatius at the Bridge approach to Eagle Scout? Perhaps all of us believe that there should be some requirement for demonstrated active service immediately prior to the EBOR. However, the National Advancement Committee disagrees and believes that if the requirements have been met, the boy should become an Eagle Scout. They do not believe that requirements met WHILE A LIFE SCOUT should be discounted just because that may have been several years in the past.

 

 

Does the boy who is turned down benefit? Likely not. He just either becomes ticked or doesn't care. And Scouting will likely have lost another potential adult supporter.

Do the boy's parents benefit? Very doubtful. They just get ticked.

Do the boys in the Troop benefit? If the Troop is Courteous and Kind, no. There will not be a public announcement that XXXXX has been turned down, it will just privately happen.

Will Scouting benefit? Hard to see how. There will still be plenty of last minute Eagles.

Will the Troop adults benefit? They are arguably the only ones who might. They will feel good that they kept the Eagle tough.

 

I know a number of men who feel good about Scouting and who are active adults who did not make Eagle because of one or two requirements. In every case, they admit and acknowledge that they were the ones responsible and it was their "fault." I have yet to meet anyone who was turned down by a Horatius at the Bridge Board of Review who is anything other than extremely angry with Scouting and whose attitude is, at best, forget Scouting forever and at worst "I'm gonna get you guys." And this is true even if the boy appeals and the appeal is successful. He may use the Eagle for his own benefit. But his relationship with Scouting is irreparably lost.

 

If we are in this Scouting business for the benefit of the Eagle candidate and the other boys in the Troop, rather than our own "feel good", we need to come up with a better way to enhance the Eagle than a last minute Board of Review turn down for a boy who, objectively, has met all the requirements.

[packsaddle]

uz2bnowl, Perhaps you can do what the other leaders in this unit couldn't. If you don't mind, compose a set of additional requirements that you think should apply to the Eagle rank and would have satisfied you if this particular boy had met them. Craft the document in a way that it will be absolutely clear as to what all the boys must do to attain the rank. Try to avoid any subjective or vague requirements. Also include, if possible, your rationale for each additional requirement. Then submit your draft to the forums for discussion.

Who knows? Maybe someone upstairs will be reading this thread - and perhaps your suggestions or the discussion will make a positive impression.

[eolesen]

I have to take exception to you calling this young man or any Scout a poser. It is neither helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, or cheerful, and a poor reflection on you as a leader, and un-Scoutlike.

 

 

From what you've said, this boy lives the scout oath and law every day.

 

 

You say he shows work ethic and is trustworthy. He is thrifty (especially if he paid for his own car).

 

He has shown that he helpful, courteous, kind, is open to helping people at all times thru his volunteer firefighter commitment, and I suspect loyal to those he works besides. He probably also shows leadership.

 

He has gone beyond brave, as firefighters put their lives on the line for their community.

 

 

 

Yet you call him a poser???????

 

 

 

Nowhere in the Scout oath does it say "to help other Scouts at all times" nor does it say "I will do my best to do my duty to Scouting" or "give back to the troop"...

 

 

From your own account, this young man appears to have has grown well beyond what many Eagles and other Scouts achieve by their 18th birthday. He is serving his community in a way that is for the most part thankless, and as you did with your military service, has shown he is willing to risk his life for others.

 

If anything, he's the type of example I would want for my boys -- taking all that they learned about leadership and community service, and turning towards serving the community in a public safety capacity.

 

 

Yet you call him a poser???????

 

 

 

I will suggest that you and the Scoutmaster both step back and stop taking it as such an insult that he didn't do more for the unit.

 

It looks to me like he was busy preparing to take on an even bigger responsibility...

 

 

"Where a man cannot conscientiously take the line required, his one manly course is to put it straight to his Commissioner or to Headquarters, and if we cannot meet his views, then to leave the work."

Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership

 

 

If you can't accept the facts that he met (and in my book, probably exceeded) the requirements, it is time for you to leave the work.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[SemperParatus]

Poser and taker??

How sad.

I think I am beginning to understand why this young man may have decided to disengage from this troop.

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Semper,

Can you imagine a US Coast Guard where nobody showed up?

Vessels full of people that can't read a chart or don't listen to the weather screaming into a radio for help. But the guy had other things to do. Maybe he was learning to be a priest.

 

Lighthouse operators that did their best to keep the flame going yet were busy doing other things?

 

Can we say they did their job? Would they win an award?

 

Wak---before the present regime of adults was doing such a cruddy job of guiding the Troop( after all we can't keep older boys who think only of other persuits, be they noble or not) the OA nights camping was somehow relaxed. Don't ask me how, I was busy imposing my iron fisted will on a Cub den at that time requiring them to become marathon runners in the Webelos program(just because I think they should give more).

 

Gern no ----I do not think it's a marriage or a calling that a boy must be married to Scouting forsaking all others until HS graduation.

Would have been nice to see a nice kid have a lead by example, role model to some kids younger than he is. Way, way too much to ask for.

 

Gern I dislike kids who punch out and use the Eagle patch as a Star Trek teleporter. Is it too much to come around every once in a while and help out?

 

Old Grey Eagle--you are correct, they is, what they is... Heck if you had the 1948 requirement---maybe only 2% would make the grade.

 

II. Scout Participation

 

1. While a Life Scout, for a period of six months show TO THE SATISFACTION OF YOUR LEADER that you.

a. Work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities and service projects of you unit.

 

Now I wasn't around in 1948 but I wonder if "active" would have meant one overnight in 2 years. I wonder how many "deathbed Eagles" there were? You guys are right the deathbed thing could be offensive how about "Hail Flutie Eagles"?(no offense to Boston College students).

 

As far as the poser comment, you weren't at the BOR when he said, "I'm all about Scouting. and "I liked camping the most of all".

 

I know none of you agree with me, please just trust me on one or two of the comments he made------- the stuff was getting deep.

 

 

Anybody think there's no mandatory participation requirement because the powers that be think it's implied?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Neil,

Can you please tell me where I can find a ref for the associate member status?

I have tried to google it, goog isn't all inclusive but it's a good start and I cannot find it.

 

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Hey uz2b,

I feel your pain. But you gotta play with the cards they dealt you.

Either fold, or play out the hand.

 

Take your frustration and light a candle to chase away the darkness. Like Packsaddle suggested, give us a concrete example of a requirement we could add to catch this sort of thing and nip it in the bud? Perhaps someone will read it, who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who can make the change.

 

OK. I'll go first.

Change the requirement

FROM:

4) While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of 6 months in a position of responsibility

 

TO:

4) While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of 6 months in a position of responsibility immediately PRIOR to or while applying for Eagle Scout:

 

In other words, if you want Eagle, you still serve the troop, but you do it in the last six months before Eagle, not ANY 6 month span before Eagle. This would not hold back any gung ho scout, and would bring those who leave for whatever reason back into the unit to demonstrate their commitment to the program.

[NeilLup]

UZ2B, I believe that it is listed in the National By-Laws. I'll need to look as I don't have my copy here.

 

Gern, For the "advancement freak", this could cause an extremely interesting phenomenon. The boy would do no leadership until he figured he was just about 6 months away from his Eagle. Then he would do his POR. Law of unintended consequences and all that.

[theysawyoucomin']

Neil,

Thank you for looking for that. 4 errors in one game? The boys at the corner of Brookline and Yawkey are killing me!!! They usually don't have 4 errors in a month. At age 12 I saw on a BB card Rico Petrocelli had the same birthday as me. That was enough to get me a ticket on The Titanic. C'mon guys!!!!!!!

 

Gern, That would be fine.

How about?

As a LS serve actively in one of the following positions for 6 months:Spl,PL, quartermaster, instructor, Den Chief,Troop Guide for a new Scout Patrol.

 

and

 

upon completion,or prior to that leadership position, for the 6 months prior to acheiving the Eagle requirements serve the Troop as a senior Scout in tasks, determined in concert with the SM, SPL and committee chair, that will best put your knowledge, skills and interests to use mentoring and aiding your Troop as they (CC,SM,SPL) direct, with the overall goal of helping your unit serve your community and the Nation.

 

Would not stop a hard charger. That would make the boy plan his final year in the path to Eagle.

 

 

If all three had to work together to choose the method I think that could curb any one person from killing the requirement by making the job so big and setting him up for failure and thereby hammering out a grudge so the boy did not advance.

 

 

For example, if my fireman, whom the whole thread is about could have been told:

 

Hey Todd we'd like you to do the following three things in the six months before Eagle

 

1. Give a tour of the fire house demonstrating the actual use of some of the items you're learning to use in your training and service to our town. On that trip describe what a terrible shortage there is in our area for people who are willing to volunteer their time to do this work. Talk about the history of your house and show the area on a map that you cover both primarily and by mutual aid.

 

2. Arrange for the volunteer ambulance folks to come and give a demo on the rig that serves our community. Tell the boys what they can expect to see in the way of aid for a car accident.

 

3. work as the SPL directs to get the S-T-2-1st class Scouts to be proficient with first aid and fire safety.

 

Would have made the kid a hero to bring the Troop to the fire house and hold a working hose, tie a scout to a backboard ect, helped the community by possibly adding to the amount of volunteers. Helped the Troop by increasing knowledge in FA and FS.

 

He would have been able to do this in about 8 hours.

 

Can we all agree that that would have been fun for Todd to display his real passion?

 

Can we agree that it could possibly be interesting for the boys? Can we agree that it would get us all a heck of a lot closer to boy led, using the most able Scouts to help lead or teach while not steamrolling the current SPL?

 

Kids that weren't a firefighter could do something similar. Jocks could discuss physical fitness. Brains could show leading science that was in the works to advance our lives. Motor heads could show vehicle maint. to get the most life and gas mileage out of the cost of a car. Kids that worked in a Lumber yard could discuss OSHA in the workplace ect. Kids that played Grand theft auto 16 hours a day and laid on their parents couch all day staining it with food ....... well, they might have it a little tough.

 

1. I myself would have had to demonstrate farm harvest and produce sales.

Rotation of stock so as to move product better. Types of apples and what their best uses were. How apple cider is mass produced, and what happens if there is no preservative in it. Discuss why fruit should be washed. Discuss the health benefits of eating fruits and veggies.Would have showed how tough that work is. Could have discussed crop theft and vandalism and gave the farmers point of view.

 

2. Take the younger kids fishing for bluegills and , with the help of a MBC or adult, teach something about fishing. Maybe the first aid part. Talk about catch and release and lead a trash clean up along my favorite stretch of a trout stream.

 

3. Lastly set up a meeting with a Marine and discuss what that job is like. Give a short talk on the history of the Marine Corps and all the places you can currently serve. Not a recruitment thing so settle down all of you. We'd be sharing an interest here. About 1 kid in 100 cares about the Marine Corp enough to join so it isn't like it would be an every other month thing.

 

About 8 or ten hours. Could be more could be less.

 

Could we have done this here, yes. However his mother would have said we were picking on him and adding to the requirements.

 

Any common ground here?