Eagle BOR--kid was hardly ever there.

[CalicoPenn]

It is NOT important how other organizations, like the Military, view the Eagle Scout. If how the military views and reacts to the Eagle Scout rank will color your thinking of whether a lad should earn Eagle Scout or not, you should gracefully withdraw from the EBOR. So too, you should withdraw from the EBOR if you cannot, in good conscience, walk in with an open mind and open heart. If you have already made up your mind, based on your feelings about what the badge means, as opposed to what the requirements are, then you are doing a disservice to the Lad, to yourself, to the rank of Eagle Scout, and to the Boy Scouts of America.

 

I can see the strong feelings you have towards the rank, and the importance you're placing on it. I see the pedestal you're creating for the rank. I can not fault you for that, but I urge you to review what the requirements for the rank are, not what you believe the requirements should be.

 

I've noticed that most folks who have answered have been very consistent - it appears as if the lad has met the requirements, as written. Is there anything, other than "he wasn't active enough in the last couple of years" and "he hasn't camped enough" to make you consider him not worthy of the rank, because those two reasons just do not hold water.

 

Please consider their advice carefully, it isn't lightly given.

 

I've mentioned before, most of us who have earned the Eagle Scout rank have learned that the pedestal that's been created in the minds of the public doesn't really exist. Instead, Eagle Scout rank is another stepping stone on a journey of discovery.

 

Calico

[Horizon]

I think the BOR is already happening, but to make a point:

 

Scout Spirit is living as a Scout every day. This boy volunteers at a firehouse - not a bad example.

The poster commented that he has not contributed - yet he served as SPL as a Life Scout, the highest position a boy can hold.

The Scout participated in other service projects, for hours he did not need.

 

There must be more to this case, but based on the information presented he sounds like a Scout who did hte majority of his work through 2005 (when he served as SPL), and since then he has been less active while finishing his requirements.

 

If the Troop could not find a way to keep him more active, that is an issue for the Troop to face. However, activity in the Troop is not the measure of Scout Spirit.

[theysawyoucomin']

Kid was given a thumbs up.

 

Kid was told he did the minimum. Kid was self righteous but agreed he could have done more.

 

Kid moves away in a month. Not one other Scout will look back at him with a fond memory.

 

But he did all the requirements!!!!

 

I sure hope some boys show up so we can get to be boy led.

 

Horizon what makes you think a Troop has to kiss this kids tail end to get him to stay active? 20 people just said it doesn't matter how active one is.

 

How in the world can the CO specify that a boy must belong to a certain church body and yet they don't allow a CO to mandate the minimum level of participation. I could list every trip the unit went on during his time learning to be a fireman and it would make your head spin.

 

We should spin a thread WHAT IS THE MINIMUM LEVEL OF PARTICIPATION?

 

The handbook talks about outdoor adventure in many places but it sure isn't required. So why bring it up.

 

The firehouse was a bigger draw only trouble was Mommy wanted him to have the silver chicken too. Well they got it.

 

You can all sleep well.

 

No kids feelings were harmed in minimizing the requirements.

[eolesen]

I'm glad you passed the kid. Fact is, he earned it, but waited until the end to complete the process. My almost-16 son will probably be in the same boat (finishing at the last moment), mainly because the program is failing to keep his interest.

 

You said it yourself -- I hope we can get more boys to show up so we can be boy led.

 

 

As harsh as it might sound (and please, don't take it as a personal attack), I'm going to suggest that it's the adults who failed the boys.

 

How?

 

As CC, how can you blame boys for voting with their feet?

 

You earned your beads, so you know the patrol method is not an option, nor is being boy led. Even if you only have four or five boys, they're going to get a lot more out of planning and running their own meetings and events than they will from being entertained and lectured by the adults.

 

Hopefully, you also understand that the BOR and SMC are not only reserved for advancement. You should be using them as a way to check-in with the boys that are still on the rolls yet aren't attending or advancing.

 

If you didn't believe they were active enough, why on earth did you keep them on the charter? As a former ADC, I heard a lot of griping over death-beds from the same adults who were the most likely to pencil whip the rechartering process and keep boys on the rolls that they'd never seen at a meeting.

 

 

Simply put, you had plenty of opportunity to be asking them why they're not active while there's still time for them and the other boys to benefit from it.

 

You blew it, and in the process, you've failed the boys.

 

 

So, instead of questioning whether or not if this boy deserves what he earned, I think you would benefit a little more by asking yourself and the committee you lead what you collectively can be doing to make sure to be monitoring the health of the program and the boys entrusted to your care.

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

When I made Eagle in 1970, I was a member of an Explorer Post and our CO was a VFD/Rescue Squad. SO this hits close to home for me. I have seen Life scouts who do nothing with their lives, except for go to a scout meeting once a week, go camping once in awhile and play video games. I have also seen Life scouts who spend their "free time" taking training such as Basic Firefighting, Standard and Advanced First Aid, CPR, Water Safety Instructor, Vehicle Extrication, Heavy Duty Rescue, Advanced Cardiac Life Support, etc. Who better exemplifies "live the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life"? Who would you rather have living next door?

 

"...to help other people at all times"..."to keep myself physically fit, mentally awake and morally straight"..."Be Prepared".

 

Seems clear to me.

[OldGreyEagle]

The University I graduated from has a Baccalaureate Degree requirments of 120 hours, I am not aware of any student who said I want to do more than the minimum, I want to earn 132 hours. At least, I dont think many parents agreed. Right now, in hospitals around the country there are surgeons operating on people who just got the minumum score on their license exam. Not many of them said, wait, I want to wait until I get a higher mark before I become a doctor.

 

The requirements are the requirements, I can't say I am too fond of them as they are currently written, but they are written and we are to follow them. Should the requiremtns be harder? perhaps, but until they are changed, it is what it is

[packsaddle]

...in my best 'talking to dog' voice, "bad Gern, bad, bad Gern".

I too agree with Gern and Bob White on this. This unit had a very notable instance in which all adult leaders, with one exception, wanted to deny a boy his EBOR because they thought he didn't meet some personal standard in each of their own personal opinions (active?, scout spirit?, etc.). Over my objections we held a kangaroo court to 'pre-examine' the boy. At the end, I held sway and all but one agreed with me. He completed the requirements: he earned the rank.

 

I 'won' this because I challenged the group to put up or shut up. I said I would consider their opinions when they could put into writing a clear, concise set of requirements that would meet all of their objections and when they made that document available to all members of the unit so that everyone will know what they are facing. They couldn't and they didn't. The boy made Eagle and I feel shame for the fact that I could not stop that kangaroo court from happening in the first place. It was so counterproductive and not necessary.

 

Edited part: OGE, not the best example...normally there is also some kind of minimum GPA, often a 2.0/4.0. In some programs the GPA in the major courses must be greater.

It is possible to earn 120 hours of credit needed for a degree and fail to ever get the degree. I am sometimes served by these individuals asking if I would like fries with my order.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Bob White]

uz2bnowl

 

You are certainly right about the standard of the Eagle Scout Rank being recognized throughout the American culture for decades.

 

Here is the part I think you are missing, That reputation came from, and still comes from, the standards and requirements set by the Boy Scouts of America NOT by the standards and requirements set by uz2bnowl or another unit leader.

 

At no time were you asked to be the guardian of the Eagle Scout rank, all you were asked to do was follow the policies procedures and programs of the BSA.

 

What is the minimum amount of work that has to be done by a Scout to earn the Eagle Rank? You will find that to be the requirements set by the Boy Scouts of America. Meeting the BSA requirements is all the Scout has to do....no more...and no less.

 

As an adult leader in the BSA how could you possibly not know that?

[scoutmaster52]

Here in CNY there was another similar case. I took over the troop when said lad was life scout(10th grade), made summer camp with us as SPL, then dissapeared. Came back 12th grade to do project which supported his fire dept. (only used members of the FD who were in other Troops to help on project.) I spent weeks discussing the pros and cons with district Exec. and district Eagle BOR chairman and we decided that the boy met the requirements and that the cons werent worth the headaches of vetoing the Eagle Rank.

[NeilLup]

Actually, Bob, I believe that the reputation came from the boys (and many are now men) who completed the requirements and became Eagle Scouts. And those requirements have changed mightily over the years. Prior to 1963 (or so) for example, there was no project. Until about 1972, Lifesaving (with water rescues) was required and there were no medical waivers. Until the late '40s, I believe that Bird Study was required.

 

So I don't think that the reputation came from the requirements. Rather it was from the people that met the requirements.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok Pack, so if I amend my post to say,

 

To earn a BA, you have to have 120 semester hours of the proper type and with the requisite grade point average is that better? How many pupils say no, I don't want to graduate with a 2.01 GPA, I will wait until it reaches 2.5?

[Horizon]

"Horizon what makes you think a Troop has to kiss this kids tail end to get him to stay active? 20 people just said it doesn't matter how active one is. "

 

You misunderstand me.

 

If a Troop provides a good program, then boys will want to participate. This is the challenge that we ALL face. I have older Scouts who are not active. I have met with them and I am empowering them to design a program that THEY will want to a part of. For them, this means less car camping and more backpacking. This means more interesting campouts. This means more interesting merit badges offered. As the PLC has put this into place, I am seeing more of my older Scouts return to the fold.

 

You misunderstand me again.

 

I did not state that it does not matter how active. I stated that the BSA has a level of activity that is necessary to achieve the rank of Eagle. Based on the information that you posted, this Scout served his POR as the Senior Patrol Leader. That means that he succeeded in serving in a POR while a Life Scout, and he was active during that time. He earned his Camping Merit Badge, so he must have camped at least 20 nights. Those are the required activity levels for Eagle Scout.

 

That brought us to the definition of Scout Spirit (and a spun thread). You posted that this Scout also VOLUNTEERED at a firehouse. That is great. To me, that is the definition of taking Scouting Ideals (and skills for that matter) into everyday life.

 

This is why I posted that there must be more to this story that you are unwilling to post (which I also respect). However, based on the information given I did not see something that lept out at me as a reason to deny this Scout's advancement to the rank of Eagle Scout.

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

 

I try to remain open minded regarding this topic, observing all views, and taking debates, advice and wise comments with a grain of salt and using them to best serve all the boys in my units.

 

Reading this post, I sometimes wonder if I am reading from a different handbook. Some members of this forum seem to believe that a Scout has earned Eagle when he has completed all their minimum requirements. I believe I've read posters comment how this Scout referred to in this topic has already earned Eagle, before the EBOR even has taken place.

 

Then why does the application have requirement 6, endorsements and EBOR after the minimum required 1-5 blocks.

 

If they have "earned" Eagle before the board, then why have an Eagle board of review at all?

 

I have always believed, the Unit Leader and Unit Committee Chair endorsements are needed, the EBOR reviews the Scout to determined if they have earned Eagle (then either provides their endorsement or not "Scouts review but not advanced".)

 

Am I reading the application wrong?

 

Maybe we can ask National BSA to create a shorter form application (like the 1040EZ), complete the minimum, and well hand you the Eagle Rank?

 

Call me stubborn, call me ignorant, maybe I'm reading it totally wrong. But I believe a Scout is recommended for Eagle before the EBOR and has only "earned" Eagle Rank after the EBOR, Scout Executive endorsement and National certification.

 

I love seeing Scouts attain Eagle. But I can spend more quality time with my family, if I don't need to attend an EBOR that is not required at all since he has already earned it, before the board even takes place.

 

Again... My bottom line. Why have an EBOR, if a Scout has already "earned" Eagle?

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Bob White]

Well, for one thing it is the board's responsibility to review the Eagle Project and determine if the scout adequately planned and applied leadership through to the conclusion of the project.

 

If the board decides that he did not then the scout would not have completed the rank requirements yet. Once the board has determined that the scout has met the project requirememt, the balance of the bor is basically a counseling session to learn how the troop's program has benefitted the scout's growth.

 

In other words you are trying to find out where the unit program is working and where it needs to improve.

 

You are also helping the scout to understand what the program and he have accomplished together and make sure that the scout flles that this has been a positive experience for him.

 

Finally you are mentors helping the scout to set his next goals and helping him understand how to plan for them.

 

I hope you will find these elements important enough to keep the bor as a part of the Eagle rank advancement process.

[packsaddle]

OGE, A+.