Eagle BOR--kid was hardly ever there.

[theysawyoucomin']

Guys the focus is not on camping only ONE concrete example(mathematically indisputable) example as to how this kid didn't do jack you know what for the unit.

 

 

This boy led thing must work great in units where the top 5% never show up.

 

Kid was a poster child for the spawn of the "me generation" becoming the "helicopter parent--you are picking on my baby crowd"

 

Stop the planet and let me off.

[Knot Head]

It is hard to imagine how a guy can earn 21 merit badges and hold POR's yet not be active for. Maybe not active recently, but the requirements seem to have been met.

 

[NeilLup]

Hello uz2b,

 

1. You know that the kid is going to end up as an Eagle Scout. You have a choice. YOu can delay it, possibly end up with an appeal, end up with the kid ticked at the Scouts and possibly with the Scouts and give a bad taste to all OR

 

2. You can go forward and at his EBOR try to lay the groundwork for his being a "good" Eagle Scout.

 

If a kid meets the requirements including character, etc. he becomes an Eagle Scout. You have indicated that he has good character and spends a great deal of time as a fireman. That's pretty special. Would you like to have him as the Fire Chief in a number of years feeling good about Scouting and about his being an Eagle Scout or feeling negative because he chose to give very meaningful service in a way other than Scouting?

 

At the EBOR, I might ask some of these questions:

 

1) In the last few years, you have done very little in Scouting. Why do you now want to be an Eagle Scout? Why do you care? What does it mean to you?

2) Your service to the community has been as a firemen. Why do you choose to be a fireman? What does it mean to you?

3) Because you haven't been around much, there will be those who say that you don't deserve to be an Eagle Scout. What would you say and will you say to them? Why do you deserve to be an Eagle Scout?

4) You will be an Eagle Scout for all of your life. What does that mean to you? What does that obligate you to do and to be? What will you do and what will you do differently because you are an Eagle Scout?

5) Scouting would like to be able to take your knowledge and character and pass it on to other Scouts. How can that happen? What can you and what will you do to aid younger Scouts?

 

If nothing else, you may get a good counselor for merit badges like Firemanship, Safety, First Aid and Emergency Preparedness. You also may get great visits to the firehouse for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts for as long as you wish.

 

If, rather than this boy being a fireman, his interest were instead in pitching a baseball and he could pitch at 100 miles per hour, so that he were the first draft choice for a major league team, not only would you and the community be incredibly proud of him, he likely would be on the cover of Boy's Life. With the same record of participation that you mention. everybody would be saying that it's amazing that he still does any Scouting with all the time that he is spending with baseball. He would get the Eagle in a heartbeat and would be lined up to be a Distinguished Eagle Scout the minute that his 25 years service was up. I feel a whole lot better about him being a fireman than being an uberjock. But the uberjocks get the adulation in our society.

 

With deep respect to you, I suggest that you and the Troop not be selfish and not downplay the extremely valid way to provide service that he has chosen. He has demonstrated citizenship, character and fitness. He has moved on from being a boy and is doing what men do. It's hard to say that's bad.

 

This kid is NOT a mistake as you have described him.

[Crew21_Adv]

uz2bnowl and Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings!

 

 

uz2bnowl asked, "Why should this boy make Eagle?"

I'll give my opinion at the end my post.

 

I too have also thought about the scope of Eagle Scout candidates. Comparing the Life Scout who has suffered, and studied, and camped, and wrote, and mentored, and taught, and planned, and led, to the Life Scout who was just there.

 

But in the end; when the are grown adults, they will be able to look back and know what kinds of Scouts they were.

 

You are describing my troop's most recent Eagle. Good young man, we can barely remember his name. When he was there, he always signs up for events, but never showed up for those events. When he was there he always volunteered to be the Instructor POR, but he didn't remember the basic Scout thru First Class skills, and would just walk away from the patrol he was teaching.

 

He recently announced and held his Eagle Scout Service Project on the day of another scout's Eagle Scout Service Project. (Without any prior coordination, the other Scout bowed out and let him have that date.) He passed up offers on six other potential projects and presented two other projects plans before the troop committee in the past three years, but he withdrew them deciding they were too work intensive. His project averaged about eight to nine hours.

 

A friend of mine had previously said "If we set the bar low enough, maybe he'll just trip over it".

 

He is a good young man, but not quiet the model Scout. He apparently sold himself to the EBOR though, admitting his shortfalls and describing his positive growth. Most of our District's EBORs take about 30 minutes, but our troop's most recent Eagle took over an hour, with 30 minutes for the EBOR committee to decide unanimously. But he was able to convince the EBOR that he was deserving. None of our troop leadership or committee are bitter or feel negative about it, we just feel that it was up to him to present the best case he could.

 

Another fellow poster to our forum has stated it before, and this seems to describe my troop's recent Eagle and the young man's EBOR that you will attend this next Monday.

 

"Some Eagle Soar, and some Eagles just flap their wings"

 

You asked, "Why should this boy make Eagle?"

Cause he has done (maybe the minimum) requirements to earned Eagle, and he (may) convince the Eagle Board of Review that he is deserving.

 

Good Luck to your candidate, because he will need to sell his value and worth and a potential Eagle Scout to the board.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[SemperParatus]

I would never sit on a BOR for a scout, where I had already made my mind up that he is not worthy of the rank. You need to think less about being fair to a pretend boy in Iowa and more about being fair to the real boy in New York.

 

[Gunny2862]

I've got one of these coming up myself.

 

Not really my idea of a good Scout, much less the top 5% of all Scouts.

He did his Scouting, except for his Eagle project and application before I came on board.

In my opinion, I wouldn't point him out as a positive example to very many people.

BUT, he's done 99.999% of the work and is doing the Paperwork to close the loop, if he finishes in time and is passed on his EBOR then he will have met the BSA requirements and have EARNED his Eagle.

 

We are supposed to facilitate, not be gatekeepers for, the program. They earn it, or not, on their own. Some will get more out of it character wise than others - that is up to them. We can guide them but it is up to them to grow. It is up to us to offer them the opportunities to advance and grow as Scouts - but it is up to them to attend and take advantage of those opportunities.

If they can advance - meeting the BSA requirements without attending as much as we would like, then our only real option is to lobby BSA for a rule change or two.

[ScoutNut]

Gold Winger stated - "I think that this is one place where GSUSA has it over BSA. To earn the Gold Award in GS, you really need to stay active until you are well into high school."

 

Not exactly.

 

The Girl Scout Gold Award is actually a service/leadership award that can only be earned by GSUSA's oldest Scouts (14-18 years old). There are similar awards for other age levels (Silver, 11-14 yo - Bronze, 8-11 yo). Each award requires more time and effort to earn, with the Gold Award requiring the most. These are all stand alone awards. Meaning you do not have to earn the Bronze in order to earn the Silver, and you do not have to earn the Bronze and/or the Silver in order to earn the Gold. It is possible for a girl to join GSUSA in 10th grade and earn the Gold Award before she graduates high school.

 

 

[mikecummings157]

Our troop had a boy very much like this a few yearsa ago. He was well on his way to Eagle, but then lost interest due to a Scoutmaster change. He started showing back up a few months before his 18th birthday, but through his behavior clearly demonstrated he didn't want to be there. A few weeks before his birthday, he handed in his last merit badge and asked for a Scoutmaster Conference. The Scoutmaster, to his credit, didn't sign him off, as he'd seen no leadership or mentoring of other scouts, or any scout spirit at all. His father appealed to our Council, who after some investigation, backed up the Scoutmaster.

 

This doesn't mean the boy won't be a fine young man, he just isn't an Eagle Scout.

 

It seems to me that the biggest mistake was the Scoutmaster signing off on the conference. However, if the boy isn't living by the Scout Oath and Law and other Scouts don't look to him as a good example, turn him down. Becoming an Eagle Scout is more than merit badges and camping, it's possessing character that follows you your entire life.

[Bob White]

Mike if you read the requirement for Scoutmaster Conference you will see that it is not a Pass/Fail requirement. RThe requirement is to HAVE the conference, there is no "not passing" it.

 

Scout Spirit according to the BSA program and as written in the Scout Handbook is not judged by the scoutmaster. So how can the Scoutmaster be responsible for signing it?

 

If the scout met the requirement then he earns the advancement. While we do not have all the details it certainle seems, according to your post, that the advancment was complete but that the scout was not advanced.

 

 

[Horizon]

This forum has people who like to bash the 13 year-old Eagles for completing the BSA requirements in the minimum possible amount of time (I was one of those many years ago).

Here we add a new group that want to bash the 17 and 11/12 months year old completing the BSA requirements in the maximum amount of time. I have many in my current troop.

 

In both of these cases people would not complain if they had earned their Eagle at 15 or so WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND PARTICIPATION.

 

I have 3 Scouts who finished in the nick of time. Thanks to adult leaders they were able to schedule SMC, Troop BOR and Council BOR within days of their 18th Birthday, and their Eagle COH will be held during the winter break from college.

 

They earned it, and I can not wait for the COH.

 

One of them was SPL 3 years ago as a Life Scout. He participates in OA, and he comes to a few meetings. We discussed his Scout Spirit during our SMC - he simply got busy with High School while finishing one merit badge (Personal Management) and delayed starting his project. While he might not have been super-active with the Troop in the last 2 years of high school, he was VERY active 3 years ago. He put some good time into the Troop, and has contributed.

 

Did they earn the Eagle based on the requirements laid out by the BSA?

[evmori]

Scout Spirit according to the BSA program and as written in the Scout Handbook is not judged by the scoutmaster. So how can the Scoutmaster be responsible for signing it?

 

And the interpretations continue!

 

Scout Spirit is a rank requirement that must be signed off or the Scout doesn't advance. The interpretation above is very similar to the interpretation that Scout Spirit doesn't apply to when the Scout is involved with his unit and only applies to when the Scout is not involved with his unit. Everyday life includes Scouting!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Crew21_Adv]

Horizon,

 

Greetings!

 

 

I think you may be misunderstanding some of our posters. The time limit is a small factor.

 

Consider it this way. If a 13 y/o or 15 y/o Life Scout does not show any Scout Spirit.

 

"Of course, Scout spirit is a part of this discussion. The Eagle candidate's spirit should be such that he is an example to other Scouts."

 

What if the young man does not demonstrate any Scout Spirit?

 

A discussion of the Eagle Scout Service Project should come up. "This is an occasion to review the Scout's Eagle service project, but not an occasion to criticize it, rather you should review it with the Scout so that you are comfortable with his completion of it."

 

What if the EBOR is not comfortable with the completion of the project, or his leadership?

 

Also the EBOR should "determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders."

 

What if there is no or barely any Scout Spirit? (Such as, smiling and saying yes sir when the parents are present, but bullying other Scouts when they believe they cannot be caught)

 

If a Life Scout does not demonstrate any Scout Spirit, if the Life Scout is not an example to his other Scouts, if the Life Scout has not shown leadership with their service project (or within their troop).

 

Regardless of age, 13, 15, or 17y/11mo, the Life Scout should receive

"Boys interviewed who are not advancing" on the advancement report.

 

They either earn Eagle thru the EBOR process or they don't.

 

Regarding your comment about "bashing". I myself would not call it "Bashing". All unit leaders are entrusted to guide Scouts.

 

Briefly comparing the output of Scouting to a factory, business, or School there is usually quality control observing a low/high margin throughput. School teachers usual grading on a "Bell Curve", still passing those with a low average, but recommending repeating a grade for those who failed themselves. But sometimes, at 17y/11m, do we lower the quality control. Some Scout leadership may be disappointed in lowering their minimum expectations, or blindly removing all expectations and allowing a potential Eagle to fly (or crash). I myself would not call it "bashing". I consider myself extremely tolerant and forgiving, but I still have had to lower my expectations.

 

When uz2bnowl, refers to "Iowa", I interpret it to be a state of mind. Not viewing it as one of the 50 states. What are the expectations, standards, and Quality Control of the EBOR in "Iowa" Is it fair to the 13 y/o Life Scout in "Iowa" who is highly deserving to allow a 17y,11m Life Scout to "just pass him and maybe his character will improve" on his last and only opportunity.

 

Even a 13 year old Life Scout may depart an EBOR and not advance. But in a month, six months or a year, that same Scout may improve their Scout Spirit and return for another Eagle Board of Review, and earn Eagle Scout.

 

A Life Scout who is 17years 11/12 months does not have any remaining opportunity to improve their leadership, their attitude, the Scout Spirit. The don't have time to stop their bullying, increase their attendance and be an example to other Scouts.

 

This post is not about "bashing" the age of the Scout. Age is a factor that the Scout has limited and placed on themself.

 

This post is about the EBOR interpretation of their role, and do they lower their Eagle Scout expectations for a single 17y,11m Scout.

 

With only one chance at all for a 17y11m, Does the EBOR lower their "Bell Curve" so much lower than what they would expect of a dynamic, high performance, outstanding Scout Spirit, positive role model and shining example 13 year old Eagle Candidate in a neighboring "state of mind".

 

I expect all Life Scouts to sell themselves to an EBOR. Some Life Scouts may have to work harder to sell themselves to an EBOR, to convince them to overlook lack of Spirit, attendance, participation, and leadership.

 

Like you asked, "Did they earn the Eagle based on the requirements laid out by the BSA?"

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[NeilLup]

Crew 21 makes some very good points.

 

There is one almost definitional difference between the 13 year old and 17 year old Boy Scout. The 13 year old Boy Scout has been a Boy Scout for, at most 4 years and most likely 3. That's about 25% of his life and about 50% of his cognizant life. The 17 year old Boy Scout has been a Boy Scout for 8 years possibly and more likely 7. That's about 40% of his life and about 70% of his cognizant life. He has demonstrated that he has at least some interest and some commitment to Scouting over a very long term.

 

Do we feel better about a boy who makes Life, becomes rather inactive and then returns to complete his Eagle at almost 18 or a boy who cleanly and legitimately makes Eagle at 13, stays a little and drops out never to return?

[Bob White]

the Scouts inactivity in the unit or his lack of participation at campouts is not considered a hurdle to his advancment accordinng to the policies of the BSa regardless of any leaders personal opinion.

 

It would be HIGHLY recommended that those leaders wishing to obstruct this scouts advancement take a few minutes to read the related materials in the BSA Advancement Committee policies and Procedures Manual.

[theysawyoucomin']

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate your time and comments.

 

Feedback is a gift, all feedback.

 

I don't want to hear about being a fireman , they have separate accolades for that. Being an eagle does not make you a fireman. Being a fireman does not make you an Eagle.

 

As far as last minute work, I worked my ticket until seven days before the deadline. One goal I picked was unattainable. I preformed another. I only mention the age of the boy because we can't tell him to work a little harder and come back in six months.

 

As far a bashing, I have contemplated giving this kid a fair shake for more hours that the amount of hours the kid spent scouting last year. Nobody is bashing anyone. Accountability, that is the question.

 

The final thing I'll say: The Armed Forces thinks so highly of the the Eagle Award that they accelerate the promotion schedule about one year and $2890 for the first years wages in any branch of the military. The Eagle gets an 18% pay raise because America thinks so highly about what we are doing. America thinks that much of the award.

 

They are thinking the kid led somebody. The kid taught others what he knew, he was a mentor. He acted alot like a Non-commissioned Officer. A small unit leader charged with the well being of his unit. Good Middle management. That the kid gave back, he was unselfish. That the kid functioned as part of a group. He put others before self.

 

You can't mentor when you aren't there.

 

The military thinks the kid passed a national standard for excellence(5%) in a youth organization. Maybe the most respected youth organization in America. We love to brag about Flucky, Armstrong, Paige,Speilberg, and others.

 

If it isn't excellence we crave, then all those Eagle ceremonies that I have been to weren't based in truth. I'd take the zeal for excellence as good enough instead it was "Scouting comes later, when I'm done doing all those other things that I really like.

 

I have to go get ready,30 minutes of answering the questions correctly will have a hard time replacing 30 months of what was supposed to be Scouting.