Advancement quiz questions

[CalicoPenn]

FireKat,

 

Wow - speaking of a baffling question! I think most would have to say that technically, the lad is 18, and if the project isn't finished, the answer is no. A good debater might be able to argue that a boy whose 18th birthday is on, say, the 15th of the month, but was born at 8:30 pm, doesn't technically turn 18 until 8:30 pm on the 15th of the month.

 

I'd prefer to avoid this at all costs - which is why it's important to be kept in the loop. I'd argue for the "substantially complete" definition of complete, and if the project beneficiary agreed, sign off on the completed project the day before, as long as the project beneficiary signed off too, with a tacit understanding that the Eagle will go back and finish the little tasks that need to be done to fully complete the task. And since I'm not one for strict interpretation of every single rule and regulation, if I were faced with this, with a lad I knew to be busting his hump to complete the project, I'd probably pre-date the completion.

 

But that's me and my nature - I prefer not to be a gatekeeper on Eagle, but a faciliator.

 

Calico

[evmori]

Ah yes. The Unit Money Earning form. Well, if an Eagle project is "outside the scope of Scouting" the form isn't necessary so any rules regarding it don't apply!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

The advancement policies state that all requirememnts except the board or review must be completed PRIOR to his 18th Birthday.

 

Can the day of his 18th birthday be prior to that date?

[Gold Winger]

Depends on how fast he's going.

[GernBlansten]

"The advancement policies state that all requirememnts except the board or review must be completed PRIOR to his 18th Birthday."

That rule is interpreted in my council as the application must be certified by the council on or before his 18th birthday.

To certify an application, a scout must complete the application through the CC signature block, have a completed and signed project workbook, life statement and statement of faith. The council verifies dates and MBs with whats in ScoutNet.

 

So if the case of the scout having his application filled out, signatures completed, and just finishes his project, all on his 18th B-day, and the office is still open to certify the app, he's good to go. Not likely, but possible.

[SMEagle819]

I took the dreaded test, and scored an 87%. One of the ones I missed was "What is the first rank in Scouts?" Of course, I answered Scout. According to the proctor of the test, Tenderfoot is the correct answer. I went back to my "Boy Scout Requirements 2008" handbook, and Scout is listed under Boy Scout Joining Requirements. OK, I think to myself, I was wrong. However, I just finished updating the troop's advancement records using the new online advancement tool on the BSA website, and I added a couple of new scouts data in the Scout "patch" field. When I printed my report to turn into council, it showed 8 scouts earned 10 ranks. Hmmm, I think to myself, we only had 8 scouts advance one "rank" each over the past few months. I went to my report, and counted the ranks earned, and the Scout badge is counted as a rank! So, this throws a whole wrench in the Scout badge and what it represents; yes, it is something that a new scout gets when he joins the troop; however, he must show some skills in order to be able to "earn" the patch. Also, the patch is the same size, shape, and color as the rest of the "rank" badges. Therefore, I respectfully submit that the Scout patch/badge/rank is actually a rank.

[gcnphkr]

I went to my report, and counted the ranks earned, and the Scout badge is counted as a rank!

Programmer do not care what it is called. If it has feathers it is a bird. If it has feathers and squawks it is an overridden bird. [rim shot] Programmers are only concerned about function, it looks like a rank, and acts like rank, so we call it a rank.

[gcnphkr]

Well, we did the quiz during our ASM meeting tonight. There we many a gasp of disbelief and must explaining was needed. The most common response was "but every troop in the district does this". Others were "ever since you went to Philmont you been finding this stuff" and "we need to install an Internet filter on your computer". Most we a bit overwhelmed with how to get from were we are to were we need to be.

[FScouter]

Yeah, it's one of those trivia things everybody gets mixed up. I'm hoping with the next edition of the Handbook, we can either get rid of the patch or make it a full scale rank so there's no confusion. In the meantime see page 31 of the Handbook.

[Bob White]

SMEagle819

While it is nice of you to respectfully submit what you think the scout badge is , please understand that it is not for your to have to decide. The Ranks are controlled by the BSA and not by any individual leader or computer programmer.

 

Here is what the BSA says . Page 31 of the Boy Scout Handbook, "TENDERFOOT is the first rank you will earn as a Boy Scout.

 

What does that tell you?

 

How about this look at pages 14 and 15 of The Boy Scout Handbook

from page 14 "The Boy Scouts will recognize your achievements by awarding badges of rank. The first three are Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class."

 

What does that tell you?

 

On page 15 it shows the ranks to Eagle and it starts with the

Tenderfoot rank.

 

So what does that tell you?

 

What it should tell folks is that they need to READ the BSA handbooks to know what the BSA program is, not a computer print out.

 

It is unlikely that the BSA will either drop the Scout Badge or make it a rank, it is a joining symbol and has been since its introduction. There is no need for the next handbook to explain it in any greater detail than the current one already does.

 

But even if it did leaders still need to read the handbook.

[evmori]

Gotta agree with FScouter. If Scout isn't a rank, get rid of the patch or make it a rank.

[SMEagle819]

Many of the BSA policies and regulations are open to interpretation, as have been said many times before, by many different people on this message board. The design of the patch, the way the "requirements" are listed for the badge, where it is worn on the uniform, the way the patch is listed in the BSA Official catalog (http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=INSIGNIA&C4=&LV=3), and the fact that the internet advancement program would have been written to a protocol provided by the BSA. After doing this research, and going back and rereading (yes, I said reading) the "requirements" for this badge, I can see where the Scout badge would not quantify as a rank: there is no BOR for Scout, but there is a SM conference. I believe we can argue this point forever, but neither one of us will change their opinion or interpretation of this badge. Considering that I know how to read, and have read the handbook many times, the Scout badge still qualifies as a rank in my book.

[Bob White]

So if I can just recap here SMEagle819...

The Official Boy Scout Handbook in at least three places says that Tenderfoot is the first Rank, The BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual (page 24) says that Tenderfoot is the First Rank, The BSA Scoutmaster Handbook on pages 35 and 123 show Tenderfoot as the first Rank.

 

But "Your Book", the one you wrote on scouting, shows the Scout Badge as the first Rank.

 

And you think that those of us using the BSA Handbooks are the ones forcing personal opinion into the "interpretation"???

 

Well I certainly don't see anyway to argue with kind of logic.

 

Best of luck to you and your book.

 

 

[skeptic]

Sometimes it seems trivialities are more important than the reasons behind them. It could be clearer in many respects, but once read carefully, it is obvious BW is right (technically). Most boys will still call it a rank, as that is how they see it. And, in our council, we are supposed to file an advancement report to record it; so where does that leave us? It really does not matter that much in the long term. Some people's houses must be wall papered in red tape. That is their choice; let it go.

[SMEagle819]

 

Well, Bob, I am citing other examples in the BSA literature that show the Scout badge as a rank. I am getting the feeling that anyone else who does their research, and disputes what you have said is unequivocally wrong. I take it that you have not gone and looked at the places I cited as showing the Scout badge as a rank. I did go and look at the places you cited showing it not to be a rank. In doing so, I have found a few more references for you:

 

On the Individual Scout Record form (#34518B), Boy Scout is listed under ranks. However, it says Boy Scout, whereas, starting with Tenderfoot through Life, it says Tenderfoot Rank, et al.

 

On the First Class, First Year Tracking Sheet form (#34118B), Boy Scout is not listed as a rank; matter of fact, its not listed on this form at all.

 

In the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book (#33088), page 59, on the chart Boy Scouting Requirements, there is a header line that includes Rank. Boy Scout is listed first here, but it also has in parenthesis, joining.

 

In the Insignia Guide book (#33066), page 25, the Boy Scout badge is listed with the other ranks. It is also listed as going on the uniform on the left pocket, the same as the other ranks. However, beginning with Tenderfoot through Eagle, the book says Tenderfoot Rank, et al. Also, on the full color insert in the middle of the book (sorry, no page numbers), the left pocket is noted as Badge of Rank. 

In the Official Boy Scout Catalog, item number 17586 is the My Trail to Eagle plaque. From the online description: Chart your progress as you move along the trail to Eagle Scout. Replace the paper badges with the actual badges once you've earned them. Hangs or stands. Measures 10 3/4" x 8 5/8". Includes an engraveable plate measuring approximately 4-1/8" x 1/2". On this plaque is a space for the Scout badge.

One last reference: my local council shop has the slot labeled where they keep the Scout badge as Scout Rank. I know this one isnt official, but it is at the council office.

I really did not want this to be an argument, as I think we are both correct. There are numerous locations in official BSA literature that makes either of our "interpretations" valid. Maybe we should get together and point out the inconsistencies in the Scout badge/rank/patch to National, and let them know there is some confusion out in the trenches. Or, like some others have said, present the view to National to get rid of the Scout badge/rank/patch altogether.