Shotgun MB counselor qualifications

[Greeneagle5]

 

 

Is an NRA certified instructor certification needed to be qualified as a Shotgun MB counselor ?

 

I'm a certified Skeet and Trap Range Safety Officer-RSO (volunteer) at a Missouri Dept.of Conservation Shotgun Range and have many years of experience hunting and shooting with my son (Eagle Scout/USNA Mdshipman)along with many of his friends. I'd enjoy working with scouts on the skeet/trap range but NRA Instructor Classes aren't offered in my immediate area(100 mile radius)

[Gold Winger]

I believe that NRA certification is required.

 

One option would be for you to contact NRA and see if there is an Instructor Counselor that would be willing to come and put on a class for a group of you.

[Stosh]

Nowhere in the BSA MB counselor guidelines does it indicate that NRA certification is required for any of the shooting sports. From your vocational background and your interest in youth, you would make a great MB counselor. Fill out a MB application and you're on your way.

 

Stosh

[theysawyoucomin']

In MY council you are required to be NRA certified.

This discussion has been had before about NRA certs. On this lovely Sunday mornig I don't have my facts together for a donnybrook so I'll tell you how we made it happen.

 

I wanted to be a rifle intructor. One for MBC because being able to do it just at camp is just plain wrong. One should be able to work on any MB any time of the year.

 

I also wanted to stage a metalic silhoueete shoot for the troop. Reactive targets in a fun atmosphere is so much more exciting that shooting paper. My buddy said at Philmont they were going to shoot an -06'. "At what?" I said. He didn't know. Turns out the have full sized steel at Philmont.

 

back to the cert.

Get together 20 like minded people to have a class then ask the NRA for the closest intructor and pay for him to come. We got a deal for $150 a couple of years ago. 15 people got it. The instructor came from about 100 miles but he was able to pay for the hotel, gas, and make some money .

 

Be sure to get the money up front.

 

Good luck.

[theysawyoucomin']

 

Stosh,

 

 

The requirement for NRA certs is very plainly stated in the G2SS.

 

I suppose one can be a counselor without it, but I think you would have a hard time with the requirement where the Scout has to break some birds to finish up.

 

I suppose you could teach the boy what he needed to know. Then find the NRA instructor for the shooting.

 

C'mon now.

 

Greeneagle, You're doing it right by getting certified first.

[Stosh]

"All shotgun shooting activities must be supervised by a currently NRA-certified Shotgun Instructor and when on the range, must be supervised by a currently NRA-certified Range Safety Officer."

 

"Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor."

 

Gotta read what the G2SS actually says. After reading it it very plainly states that it does not state that MB counselors need to be NRA/BSA certified to teach the MB. All it states is that during shooting activities it must be SUPERVISED by a NRA/BSA certified instructor and when on a range, SUPERVISED by a NRA/BSA certified range officer. NOWHERE does it say the MB counselor has to be NRA/BSA certified!

 

If I go to a range for shooting I expect an appropriate certified range officer there. Greeneagle already qualifies there. If I send my boys off to Hunter Safety, I expect the appropriate certified personnel to teach and if during the shooting activities, there must be present to supervise an instructor, great, no problem. BUT IF I AM the MB counselor, I do NOT have to be certified.

 

Just another case of people making up rules as they go along. Read what's written, not what one thinks is written.

 

Greeneagle is already a range officer, he can have his boys shoot at the range all he wants. All he needs is an instructor to sit in and supervise while the boys shoot. The instruction of the MB does not need NRA/BSA certification! That might cost a little traveling expense for this person, but will not involve any costly and lengthy training or certification for anyone. If one is going to bring in someone to instruct instructors, that's ok, but surely they should be able to find someone to sit in and supervise an afternoon of shooting for the boys at the local skeet club. There may be a few NRA/BSA instructors already there, if not, council camp staff probably has a few, just ask around. I'm sure if there is these people would find it worth their time to sit in and supervise these boys on an occasional Saturday afternoon of shooting.

 

As I stated before: As far as teaching the MB, the counselor DOES NOT NEED TO BE NRA/BSA CERTIFIED.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

" it must be SUPERVISED by a NRA/BSA certified instructor and when on a range, SUPERVISED by a NRA/BSA certified range officer"

 

Is either of those necessary since a merit badge activity is not a BSA activty?

[theysawyoucomin']

 

 

"If I go to a range for shooting I expect an appropriately certified range officer there"

 

I don't know what the regs are in Wisconsin.

 

I have shot clay at many ranges in Florida, North Carolina and New York.

 

The range officer is usually a member of the Club that volunteers his time to operate the machinery for the birds. If you come to NY and expect that old retired guy running the trap range to be certified by the NRA you'll get let down.

 

I have shot at the Ilion gun club where Remmington has it's shooting school. There was no certified instructor there.

 

I shot clays in Florida at Gen. Schwarzkopf's club and all we got was a device to count the birds used and a map of the stations.

 

A RSO is lower in heirarchy than an instructor.

 

G W- when is a merit badge activity not a BSA activity?

Have a kid get hurt shooting, sailing, fishing or even bit by a dog earning the vet merit badge and you'll find out MB activities are BSA activities as far as the insurance man is concerned. YPT is required for MB counselors because it is a BSA activity. MBCs are registered and given background check so the BSA doesn't lead a boy to a bad person. The BSA is liable.

 

Stosh being a Missouri RSO does not make one able to shoot with boys scouts. We have NYSDEC hunter safety instructors that cannot take boys to shoot. The NRA is a national body. The BSA chose a national standard. I am not saying that GE wouldn't do a great job but I think your advice would leave his 6 in the wind.

 

If you read the 3rd sentence in my second post you'll see I agree with Stosh ---you could do the instruction and allow others to do the shooting. GreenEagle is this what you really want?

 

GreenEagle- call your council office, get a letter in writing stating that you can "have his(your) boys shoot all he wants".

 

Then Stosh states "all he needs is an instructor to sit and supervise

while the boys shoot."

 

Well, all I need is to guess 8 numbers right in the mega jackpot and I'll be set for life. The critical step is left out. If I was only 7'4" I could be in the NBA

 

I think Stosh and I would both agree if you want to do every requirement of the MB you need to be NRA certified.

 

If you have an instructor to just watch the shooting , I would agree you are good to go. But it doesn't make much sense. Will the coucil review board apporve it?

 

Your best bet is to ask your DE see what he says. I'd be interested to know.

 

I thought the spirit of your question included ALL reqmts for the MB especially since you mentioned the range in your original post. I also took your question meaning you would be the sole "instructor" for the MB.

 

I have heard of a boy getting a "partial". Never a MBC being able to "partially " counsel.

 

 

I think the spirit of the review process for MB is to check your credentials. Heck, I could be a dentristy MBC if only I have a dentist help me.

 

I can't imagine a council certifying you to be a MBC and you not being allowed to supervise the "hands on" part of the MB. Scouting is doing.

 

Check with your DE. Cover your beast of burden.

 

By the way Stosh are you a MBC for any of the shooting sports? What council do you belong to? Are you in fact a shooting sports MBC or are you riding that razor thin edge just to be correct?

 

Call Twin Rivers ask for the Mahican Dist. Chair, he knows the efforts I put into getting 15 of us certified. I don't think it was in vain.

 

With shooting sports you could have years of experience and been hunting before you could walk but they need a national standard.

Why would a NRA certified Rifle instructor not be able to counsel Blackpowder or shotgunning. I think I know not to point the round hole opposite the stock at another person. They were looking for measureable expertise.

 

GreenEagle5,

let us know what the DE says.

[Gold Winger]

"Have a kid get hurt shooting, sailing, fishing or even bit by a dog earning the vet merit badge and you'll find out MB activities are BSA activities as far as the insurance man is concerned."

 

Only at camp.

 

If your son is playing basketball on in a rec league so that he can finish the Sports mb and gets hurt, will you hold BSA liable? Sorry, it won't fly.

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Do the following:

Explain why BB and pellet air guns must always be treated with the same respect as firearms.

 

Doesn't need a NRA/BSA instructor for this requirement.

 

Describe how you would react if a friend visiting your home asked to see your or your family's firearm(s).

 

See above.

 

Explain the need for and use and types of eye and hearing protection.

 

See above.

 

Explain the main points of the laws for owning and using guns in your community and state.

 

See above.

 

Explain how hunting is related to the wise use of renewable wildlife resources.

 

See above.

 

Successfully complete a state hunter education course, or obtain a copy of the hunting laws for your state, then do the following.

Explain the main points of hunting laws in your state and give any special laws on the use of guns and ammunition, and

List the kinds of wildlife that can be legally hunted in your state.

 

See above. (As a matter of fact, they don't even need to be hunter safety certified!!!!)

 

Explain to your counselor the proper hygienic guidelines used in shooting.

 

See above.

 

Identify and explain three shotgun sports. Identify places in your community where you could shoot these sports and explain how you can join or be a part of shooting sports activities.

 

See above.

 

Give your counselor a list of sources that you could contact for information on firearms and their use.

 

See above.

 

Do ONE of the following options:

Option AShotgun Shooting (Modern Shotshell Type)

 

Identify the principal parts of a shotgun, action types, and how they function.

 

See above.

 

Identify and demonstrate the rules for safely handling a shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Identify the parts of a shotgun shell and their functions.

 

See above.

 

Identify the various gauges of shotguns. Explain which one you would pick for use and why.

 

See above.

 

Identify and explain the fundamentals of safely shooting a shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Identify and explain each rule for safely shooting a shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot moving targets, using the fundamentals of shotgun shooting.

 

See above.

 

Identify the materials needed to clean a shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Demonstrate how to clean a shotgun safely.

 

See above.

 

Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Shooting score requiredHit at least 12 (48 percent) out of 25 targets in two 25-target groups. The two groups need not be shot in consecutive order.

 

The MB counselor doesn't do anything at this point except sit back, watch and count targets hit while a NRA/BSA certified instructor supervises what the boys are doing.

 

Shooting skill rules:

 

Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field.

 

If this shooting is not done at a trap or skeet range/field, a NRA/BSA range officer is not required/needed.

 

Note: If using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least five feet to the right and three feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed.

All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction.

Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap.

Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice.

Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 12 gauge may be used.

Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used.

Any ammunition, either factory or hand loaded, may be used.

 

Maybe if the MB counselor isn't just standing around watching the boys, maybe he can hand-toss the targets. The NRA/BSA instructor still is only supervising the activities.

 

Shooters must shoot in rounds of 25. Rounds need not be shot continuously or on the same day (the term "round" refers to a single series of 25 shots).

 

The MB counselor only records the scores for completion of this requirement.

 

Option BMuzzle-Loading Shotgun Shooting

 

Discuss a brief history of the development of the muzzle-loading shotgun.

 

See #1 above.

 

Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock shotguns and discuss how they function.

 

See above.

 

Demonstrate and discuss safe handling rules of a muzzle-loading shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use.

 

See above.

 

Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.

 

See above.

 

Discuss proper components of a load.

 

See above.

 

Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzle-loading shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Demonstrate knowledge, skill, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzle-loading shotgun on a range, including range procedures.

 

See above. (One doesn't need to be certified to know what range procedures are.)

 

Shoot a moving target with a muzzle-loading shotgun using the five fundamentals of firing the shot.

 

MB counselor validates the accomplishment of this requirement but does so under the supervision of a NRA/BSA instructor. No instruction is necessary, just supervision.

 

Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun properly and safely.

 

See above.

 

Demonstrate how to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun safely.

 

See above.

 

Identify the causes of a muzzle-loading shotgun's failing to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.

 

See above.

 

Discuss what points you would consider if selecting a muzzle-loading shotgun.

 

See above.

 

Shooting score requiredHit at least five out of 15 targets.

Shooting skill rules:

 

MB counselor validates the accomplishment of this requirement but does so under the supervision of a NRA/BSA instructor. No instruction is necessary, just supervision.

 

Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field. Note: If �using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least five feet to the right and three feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed.

All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction.

Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap.

Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice.

Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 10 gauge may be used.

Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used.

 

See above.

 

These are the requirements for shotgun shooting MB and NONE of the requirements indicate the necessity of the MB counselor needing any kind of certification. Except for the actually shooting for score, all these requirements can be accomplished sitting around a table in a church basement or sitting around the dining room table at Joe Blow's house.

 

So to go back to Greeneagle's initial question: Is an NRA certified instructor certification needed to be qualified as a Shotgun MB counselor? The answer is still NO it is not. Is one needed for the boys to shoot one of the requirements? Yep, but the MB counselor can sign off credit for that requirement when the boy meets or excedes the score necessary for passing. Is NRA/BSA certification needed to watch how many targets the boy hits? NOPE. Is a NRA/BSA instructor needed to supervise this process? Yep. Is this instructor needed for any instruction or just supervision? Just supervision.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Greeneagle5]

 

I'll attempt to motivate enough interest within our gunclub and local BSA district to make it practical for an NRA instructor to conduct a training program here next Spring......thanks for the input and positive discussion

[scottteng]

I would recommend a call to the local council office to obtain the phone numbers of the Shooting Sports Directors. These fine gentleman are camp school trained to run shooting sports programs. This would be the person to contact. We have a number of them here but they are always in need of extra help being the volunteers they all are. Don't know about anywhere else but in order to run a range here you need a council card which you earn in 20 hours OJT on the range.

[NJEagle1973]

A couple of years ago, the G2SS stated that a certification from the State would suffice, now it just reads a cert from the NRA. What happened for that change to have occurred?

[theysawyoucomin']

GE5,

What did you find out from Council?

[Bob White]

This question was brought up with the BSA Risk Management professional at Philmont Training Center. His response was that you beed to read the merit badge handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting (imagine that I thought to myself), it does not say that the counselor needs to be NRA certified. It says that the shooting portion must be done at a range that is supervised by an NRA certified instructor and safety officer. The counselor need not be either.