Help Eagle advancement DENIAL

[scoutldr]

Never mind...

 

(good job, ketchome)

[acco40]

If you are a EBOR member who doesn not really know the Scout consider the Scoutmaster - by signing the Eagle application the SM is recommending this Scout for Eagle. Consider the letters of recommendation. These individuals should be giving their honest opinion on the qualifications of the Scout. Why should a EBOR member who doesn't know the Scout as well as the other folks above make a different deduction?

 

Boy, doesn't the response above look rather prescient given what we now know about the incident?

[Lisabob]

Well now that's an interesting twist/ending to the situation, and also much easier to deal with (sigh of relief). Glad to hear that you have one less worry on your shoulders, ketchome.

[Basementdweller]

What a wild and weird twist.............I wonder about the scouters motives too. Vindictive and sad. The incident was 4 years ago.....

 

The way the story read it was like it happened a couple of weeks ago.

 

 

[cwickenden]

As a dad I'm just getting started with Scouts - my son recently turned 11, but I was an active Boy Scout growing up. It is a very sad situation, but this could be a very valuable lesson to the young man. Three words "On my honor..." are all that is needed. This young man damaged his honor with his actions, and while he may not have a criminal record now, the scar of losing something that he has worked very hard for could be a reminder of just how important honor is to a man. If it was my son, I would concur with the decision. Best of luck.

[Flip608]

Of course a 4 yr ago incident makes a difference but what if this is the first time any BOR or advancement personnel have been presented with the dilemma, ie no other advancement decisions included this information. After all it appears to have been hushed. The apology is the admission. The young man has been able to escape scouting consequences and thus is not benefiting from the scouting cause, life lessons. At minimum he should be made to squirm in the BOR by asking him to speak to the incident, by asking him whether it came up in any other BOR and by asking whether he has ever stolen anything since. If there is any doubt, then Eagle rank has not been earned and the appeal process would provide the required time. If a denial turned out truly to be misplaced then an overturn will follow with no further requirements.

[MissingArrow]

At minimum he should be made to squirm in the BOR by asking him to speak to the incident, by asking him whether it came up in any other BOR and by asking whether he has ever stolen anything since.

 

Why should he be made to squirm? What kind of message is that sending? Why not talk about what he has learned since the incident - if it even needs to be brought up. BORs should not be used to make Scouts worry to death...

 

Kids make mistakes, even "good kids" with "good parents", even Eagle Scouts...

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Flip608, welcome to the forums. I think that a BOR should not engage in 'head games' with boys. On the other hand, give them a few years of college and then I'll be glad to make them squirm as graduate students in their preliminary exams. MU-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

[Flip608]

Hi Missingarrow - it is sending various messages positive and negative (stealing has negative connotations)including that the Eagle Scout rank has been reserved for those who show respect for its standards. This is not about mistakes.

 

Hi Packsaddle - 3780 posts, congratulations. I liked your basic resistance to awarding Eagle rank to the scout. Also that Eagle Scout rank itself is far less significant than the hoped for behavior self-adjustment he makes for his protection at 18+.

 

The scouting advancement process would have truly helped prepare him for life if he knows he missed this honor by not living all its values for the most recent 4 years of his life.

 

I'm sorry you read 'head games' into my comments.

 

Paraphrasing scoutldr in this thread as follows. Do not let him add Eagle Scout to his resume, instead allow him to earn equivalent merits when job seeking and the interview board member, seeing scout references, questions him about whether he achieved Eagle rank, and the young man answers honestly and forthrightly, with the minimum of squirming, because he remembers the implicit training at his Eagle Scout BOR, winning over the employer.

 

That moment was a manifestation of all your years of scouting contributions.

[CalicoPenn]

Flip,

 

I'm curious - are you an Eagle Scout?

 

Calico

[Flip608]

Hey Cal,

 

No. I was introduced to scouting when I came to this country and was too old then. Like to think I would have enjoyed and stayed with it. Just a student of it, observing my son who is well immersed, having fun with friends from school who have stayed together in pack and troop. Committee member, summer camp next week etc.

 

What's your take on the susbstance of this thread?

[CalicoPenn]

My original take, before we got the rest of the story, was that what was being discussed was based on heresay, not fact, and should have no bearing.

 

Once we got the rest of the story, and we learned the incident actually happened, but a few years, and ranks, prior to present, that this should no longer have any bearing on awarding the Eagle Scout rank now. Had it been something that happened recently, I would certainly be pressing for some serious probing into the incident, with an inclination to deny rank if this was not just an aberation, or if there can be an interpretation of lack of intent. As an example of the last, we've heard of at least one case where a Scout was suspended from school, and faced potential arrest, for leaving an axe used at an Eagle Project in the trunk of his car and running afoul of the school's zero tolerance policies. Does something like that rise to a level that Eagle should be denied?

 

In this case, though, it happened a while ago. I don't think I would characterize it as being "hushed up". I'd characterize it as having been dealt with, and life moves on. I see no claims that it has happened since.

 

Boys aren't perfect - that goes for boys that are Scouts too. Eagle Scouts and Eagle Scout candidates aren't perfect. Building character isn't as simple as putting a Boy Scout uniform on a boy and "poof" - the Boy has character. It's a process. As part of this lads process, he ran into a rough patch when he was 13, along with some of his peers (and peer pressure, especially at age 13, can be quite overwhelming). He's now 17, and from all appearances (from the limited info we have), he's grown through that incident.

 

An Eagle Board of Review isn't an inquisition. It isn't a time when we open a Scouts "permanent record" and go over every slip or issue in a lad's Scouting career. It's not some kind of parole hearing. It's not a place to play "gotcha" games. I see no reason to bring this incident up at all, nor for the Board of Review members to even be told of it. Like Board's for the other ranks, Eagle Boards are about measuring the success of a Troop's program - though this time it's less about their success in teaching skills, and more about developing a Scouts character. It's also about how Scouting has impacted the lads future, his beliefs, his confidence, his character. For this lad, I would suggest that his learning from that one incident, and sticking it through to go on to potentially earn the Eagle Scout rank, speaks volumes about his good character.

 

That's just my take, as an Eagle Scout myself.

 

Calico

 

btw - the reason I asked if you were an Eagle Scout is that thus far, in my experience, and for the most part (there are of course exceptions) that folks who weren't Eagle Scouts tend to be a bit harder, a bit less forgiving of slips, when it comes to awarding the Eagle Scout rank. I don't think it comes from anywhere negative, but more from a viewpoint that the Eagle Scout rank is, or should be, more sacrosanct than any other rank, and therefore only the best of the best of the best should earn it. And for the most part (with exceptions, of course), those who earned the Eagle Rank tend to be a bit more flexible when confronted with these same slips - and have a view that every Scout should have the opportunity to become Eagle, flaws and all. I think we put the Eagle Scout rank on a pedestal, and then those that earn it actually learn that the pedestal doesn't really exist - that Eagle Scout is both special, and also just another beginning.

[ASM915]

Ketchome,

I'm glad everything turned out okay.

I had to dodge a similar bullet at my EBOR back in the 70's. I lived on a dead end street about 50 yards long. One June evening, a couple of us neighborhood kids got together and decided to pull a harmless prank at the local elementary school. At the end of our street we had 4 stop signs, two on either side of the street (incase we converted to the British way of driving), and two dead end signs, one on each side of the street. We decided to take one of the stop signs and one of the dead end signs down from the opposite side of the street. We labeled them with the location that they were taken from so they could return to the proper location. The intersecting street was closed a block up for construction. We took one barracade that was two or three rows back, not at the front and marked it approporiately. We took everything down to the elememntary school. The barracade went up at the parking lot and the signs went up at the doors. Stupid harmless childhood pranks.

 

One of the Troop CM's lived on the intersecting street. At the EBOR, back then it was only Troop BOR's, he called me on the prank accusing me of stealing the signs to put in my bedroom, and causing future aciidents, not knowing that we had labeled them. Due to my stellar Scouting career to that point, and the CM, who lived at the intersection, when questioned about the intersection, had to agree that that were 4 stop signs and two dead end signs at the end of the street, the ones taken were inconspicuous and didn't interfere with the traffic and that he didn't know that they were labeled for return, the situation was palyed down by the EBOR and I received my Eagle.

 

Moral of the story:

I took some minor heat for a stupid prank and was awarded my Eagle.

He was talked with about checking into things a little more thoroughly before making accusations about what he felt was happening.

 

 

Today, I'm with packsaddle on taking the hardline approach on upholding the honor of the Eagle, and just not giving it to everyone who thinks that they should be awarded Eagle irregardless of their past. Stupid childhood mistakes and character flaws that they have corrected over three or four years are one thing. Habitual problems are another.(This message has been edited by ASM915)