Eagle service project outside sphere?

[Bob White]

No one has said that it is not an Eagle Scout Service Project. The fact is that it is not a BSA activity and as such is not subject to the rules or protections of the BSA program.

 

A vendor who produces BSA retail items is only required to meet the trademark regulations of the BSA. The products do not get sent to various divisions to be checked.

 

Anyone who has purchased a BSA flint and steel kit will know that functaionality and the salability are not related when it comes to licensing or marketing BSA products.

 

I hope you do not seriously expect that the BSA National Supply Division would be versed in the BSA advancement regulations or in any the policies and procedures of any other BSA division?

 

It is no different then the fact that there are resale products that advertisers place in scouting magazine that are not BSA approved products and cannot be sold by scouts in uniform or using the BSA nasmes or images.

 

But they are in a BSA Publication, just as the Banner you saw was in a BSA shop.

 

Do not confuse resale items with BSA policies.

 

The project is an Eagle Scout Project, it certainly is not a Tenderfoot Project, but it is also not an official Scout activity, nor does it have the benefits or protections of one, nor is it subject to all the policies of the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

I hope you do not seriously expect that the BSA National Supply Division would be versed in the BSA advancement regulations or in any the policies and procedures of any other BSA division?

 

If they aren't they should be! They are producing & distributing advancement items. If these items are not in line with the BSA policy & procedure, they should not be produced & distributed.

 

How about those names there Bob? Or are we to just take it on your good word?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[gcnphkr]

Well this is interesting.

 

If what BW says is true, and I have to believe it is until there is evidence to the contrary, I'm going to have to get a lawyer to write an understanding of liability for the scouts to have the organizations sign so that they are fully aware of their exposure. I'm guessing this will reduce the number of organizations willing to have scouts do an ELSP for them. I'm certainly going to have to kill the McGruff Safe Kids ID project that one scout is working on.

 

The good news is there is not need for the scouts to get a tour permit, which will make life much easier for them.

[Bob White]

Jet

Why do you feel it is your responsibility to do anything at all on this? Certainly the benefiting organization has enough intelligent adults on its board to know that accidents that take place on their property falls under their insurance? Heck every home owner shoul know that. This is not news to anyone.

 

If an organization needs work done then SOMEBODY has to do it. Whether it is an Eagle candidate or not, the owners of the property where the work is being done is going to have the exact same burden of liability.

 

If you were giving these organizations the impression that the BSA was going to take responsibility for thier insurance obligations just because the person leading the eactivity happened to be a scout then your were wrong. That has never been the case. You do not need a lawyer, nor do you need to cancel anyones service project, what you need is additional BSA training.

[gcnphkr]

Why do you feel it is your responsibility to do anything at all on this? Certainly the benefiting organization has enough intelligent adults on its board to know that accidents that take place on their property falls under their insurance? Heck every home owner should know that. This is not news to anyone.

This is not always the case. For starters, not all projects that benefit an organization take place on their property. Or in the project I mentioned, the scout will be renting a booth at a parade and festival hosted by the city (which is the benefiting organization). Now I'll be very surprised if the city will not require a waiver of liability to go along with that booth.

Projects on public land will typically be at risk, so work on trails, park clean ups, will typically not be covered by the government agency. Even on private property it would not be unusual for the organization to assume that they will not be liable. For example, if an organization hires a company to come redecorate, do landscaping, put in cushioning in a playground, etc. the company and not the organization is responsible. So, when Johnny comes in and says, "I'm working on earning my Eagle Scout rank and I would like to rebuild your fire pit which is falling apart" it would not be unreasonable for the organization to assume that Johnny is acting as an agent of the Boy Scouts of America and that they will not be responisble for accidents. Of course this even more likely when the poor scout, who is now totally exposed, has shown up in his field uniform for the meeting. All the more as they have not read, or even heard of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures.

If you were giving these organizations the impression that the BSA was going to take responsibility for thier insurance obligations just because the person leading the eactivity happened to be a scout then your were wrong.

Considering that the only person the organization is likely to talk to is the Boy Scout, there is not telling what a fifteen year old is telling them. I'm guessing that liabilty will never come up and some, maybe not all, but some organizations will assume that the scout is not acting as their agent, but as an agent for the Boy Scouts and that therefore the liability is not their's.

You do not need a lawyer, nor do you need to cancel anyones service project, what you need is additional BSA training.

I may need to do all of the above. Likely "Boy Scout Advancement", which is good as I was wanting an excuse to go back to PTC next year (dad pauses to wonder how son is doing at NAYLE).

[Bob White]

Johnny manning a booth is not an Eagle Project. If the Booth Is for the police departments crime prevention campaign then the it is the police departments booth not johhny's and johny's job s to make sure that there are people scheduled and trained to man the booth. The rtoe f the Eagle candidate is to give leadersip to others not to do the work himself.

 

 

Re-building a fire pit is routine maintanence and should not qualify as an Eagle service project. Even if it did that land, though public, has a government body that insures it and who would be responsible for it.

 

The BSA has NEVER provided liability protection for anyone other than registered adults and no registered adults are required to ve present at an Eagle project. The accident insureance only covers BSA members at a regular unit activity and the Eagle project is not a unit activity. It is not planned by the unit, it doies not require any other member of the unit to be present.

 

Other than reviewing the project plan to see that it meets the BSA advancement requirements and can be applied tothe rank, the unit has NO responsibility for the project at all! The project belongs to the benefiting organization and not the BSA at any level.

 

Boy Scout advancment committee training usually takes place two times each summer at Philmont Training Center. I agree that you would find it very helpful. I hope your son is having a great time at NAYLE. I met his SPL and Scoutmaster last week, they are very impressive.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[gcnphkr]

I'm not disagreeing with you about the project not being a scout event. What I am saying is that it does expose the scout to a level of liability that he is likely unaware of. Based in this, the scout should be instructed not to wear his uniform. There may be some other implications as well. It certainly changes the way the project is handled. For example, some businesses require a letter before they donate materials. The letter should be from the organization and not the troop. Although this is implied by "Donors to projects must be made aware of what entity is benefiting from the project, and that

it clearly is not the Boy Scouts of America", it is not explicit, and I'll wager that most of these letters end up on troop letterhead.

Now, and correct me if this is wrong, the unit can participate in the project as a unit, just as it might participate in a parade. The parade itself is not a unit activity, but scouts would be taking part in a unit activity, that is going as a group to march in the parade. That would mean that if the scout wants the troop to help, he should present the request to the PLC (something we've been missing) which could then authorize him to organize the troop for their part in the project. If he is just going to ask some friends, who just happen to be scouts, for help then there would be no need for him to talk with the PLC. Of course, this has other implications. For example, a Tenderfoot that comes to help him on his project would not receive credit for participating in a troop/patrol activity, but the same scout going as a part of a patrol that had decided to help with the project would.

I hope your son is having a great time at NAYLE. I met his SPL and Scoutmaster last week, they are very impressive.

Good to know and thanks. I'm sure he is having a wonderful time. It has been a tough Summer for mom and dad. He just turned 15, spent 7 weeks on staff at the council camp, then flying alone to Philmont for NAYLE. He gets back on Saturday in time to do laundry, repack and then off to be a Troop Guide for NYLT. I'm not sure I'm going to recognize him.

[Horizon]

I want to toss in a thanks to those who add so much content to the discussion.

 

Bob White - one reason some of us ask for more specific comments or clarification from National is when we run into issues at our Council office.

 

For example, I just reviewed one of my Eagle candidates project books as part of our Scoutmaster's Conference. He had no less than 20 tour permits filed for when he was building some furniture for a local shelter.

 

Now, if the Eagle Project is outside of the sphere of Scouting, does he need a tour permit filed?

[FScouter]

Activities planned by the PLC, calendared by the Scoutmaster, and approved by the troop commmittee are troop events and need a tour permit. An individual Scout with a buddy (or two) working on a merit badge is not a troop activity, nor is a Scout discussing his rights and responsibilities with an elected official, nor doing his daily good turn, nor planning and executing his project for Eagle rank.

 

Of course the girl in the Scout office insists that one be turned in "or else", but what does she know?

[gcnphkr]

Of course the girl in the Scout office insists that one be turned in "or else", but what does she know?

If only is was the girl. At the last Eagle Packet training we had at Roundtable we were told the scout would need to file a tour permit for the project.

[Bob White]

Tour permits are planning tools that show the unit administration and the local council (or regional office in the case of a National Tour permit), that the UNIT LEADER for the activity has taken certain specific details into consideration and properly prepared for them for the trip.

 

There is no reason for a scout to complete a tour permit for an activity done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

Are you surprided that the Roundtanble said that a tour permint was needed. Remember not that long ago most of the posters here would never knew that the BSA said the project was outside the sphere of scouting, never thought to question if it was a scout activity, and never thought about what elements keep it from being a scout activity.

 

Commissioners need training too, but that is an entirely different topic for a new thread.

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Fascinating. I've read the "outside Scouting" phrase and wondered what it meant. Kinda like the extra part you don't know what to do with after you rebuild a carburetor.

The point of view that Bob is presenting certainly isn't taught in SM/ASM training here and I'm sure it would be taken as absolute blasphemy in our council. If this is in fact the interpretation endorsed by National, I would say some clarification and additional training is needed.

That leads me to a couple of questions:

First, what training? Is there a training syllabus for council/district advancement committee members? I've taken the district committee training and no program area was covered at this depth of detail. Earlier in this thread Bob White mentioned that much of the misunderstanding relates to overzealous Scoutmasters retiring into district or council positions. I couldn't agree more. We call these guys ROMEOs -- Retired Old Men Eating Out. These committees and consequently their policies tend to be self perpetuating. Where's the training and/or documentation that helps break this cycle (And I'm sitting here with a copy of the Advancement Committee Guide. It is far from being clear on the subject.)

Secondly, as a unit leader, how are we to supervise and/or evaluate an Eagle project if it is performed outside of Scouting? Depending on the project, I suppose we could inspect the finished product, but how do we confirm leadership? We can't rely on the benefiting agency as I've never seen a representative of any beneficiary on site supervising a project and I doubt many of them understand the leadership qualities we would be looking for.

And third, to JET526's point, I really wonder about the liability. I think there would be a huge fall off from agencies participating in ESLPs. I don't think they have any concept that they are accepting responsibility for a bunch of teenagers doing work on their property. We recently had a project fall a part because the agency refused to provide the Scout with a letter of Worker Comp coverage which was required to pull a building permit.

From the BSA side of the liability issue, I sure wouldn't want to rely on the "outside the scope of Scouting" clause to cover my biscuits. That the project proposal signed by the Scoutmaster, unit committee member and a council/district representative would be a high hurdle to overcome.

[Bob White]

Twocubdad

 

I will try to address your three points.

 

First, I do not see the need for this to be in scoutmaster basic training, but it certainly is appropriate to supplemenatry training at Roundtables, University of Scouting, Commissioner Colleges, Philmont, etc.

 

But I have to admit that I do not understand why any leader would consider talking to another organization regarding their insurance or would expect that BSA liability protection would extend to people or places not in the BSA??

 

I was a Scoutmaster long before I ever saw an Advancemnet policies and procedures manual and it never occurred to me to think that; A) a boy doing a project for someone else makes it a Scouting sponsored activity, or B) I had any authority to say that my BSA liability protection extended to cover anyone that was anywhere a scout was.

 

I'm sorry but I am not that particularly bright and even I understood that if I am injured someone else's property that it is their liability policy in effect not someone elses.

 

Point two. Where in ANY BSA resource does it say that ANY scout leader is to be present at an Eagle Scout's project for the purpose of observing and evaluating???

 

I have no idea where you were mislead on this point, but you either were taught or imagined a responsibility that does not exist and never has. You do not confirm leadership at a project. That is the role of the Eagle board of review, and they determine it by the project report and the interview process of the board. No leader or board member is instructed, required, or suggested to be present.

 

Point three.

You assume that other agencies know as little of their liability protection as you do, and I think that is a huge assumption on your part. If a benefitting organization asks the scout about liability his best response is "you need to ask your insurance provider, I am only leading the project for you". If they ask the unit the proper response would be "This is not a BSA activity, the young man is doing the project for your organization not for the BSA or this unit".

 

If the scout was not leading the project SOMEBODY ELSE would be and the benefiting organization would still be the property owner and responsible for liability. This is why the scout works WITH the organization to determine a project and to have the plan approved by them.

 

I have worked with dozens of Eagle candiates as their Scoutmaster or Eagle Mentor. I have NEVER had a single benefiting organization ask the scout or me about insurance.

 

I really believe that your concern, and your projection that this is an issue that will cause groups to withdraw, is totally unwarranted. You are worried about something that has yet to actually happen.

 

Remember this is not a change in policy, this has existed for many many years. No Eagle project has had the liability or accident insurance that you thought it had and yet it has never been an issue. The only thing changing here is your level of knowledge, not BSA insurance or protection.

 

I will return to the example of a scout playing on a high school sports team and applying that activity to a merit badge advancement. Did you really think for one minute that that teamm game the scout was in was a Scouting Activity merely because the player was a Boy Scout? Diod you think that everyone in the game was protected by BSA accident insurance and that the coaches and shools were protected by BSA Liability Protection simply because the the player was a scout using his participation on the team toward a BSA advancement???

 

The Eagle project is no different. The youth who is leading the activity also happens to be a scout and is using the activity toward his advancement. That does not make it a Scouting activity nor does it provide accident insurance for anyone on the project or liability for adults.

 

if a unit goes to a help at a service project that happens to be lead by a boy applying the work to his advancement, then the unit is on a scouting activity and the unit mebers have accident insurance and the registered adults have liability protection should a scout be injured or should property be damaged by a scout in the unit.

 

The project is not a scout activity but a unit there as a unit activity is a scout activity unto itself.

 

BSA liability covers ADULT REGISTERED members of the BSA and the chartering organizations during regular Scouting Activities. The Project itself is not a Scouting activity it is an activity of the benefiting organization that happens to have a boy leading it that is a scout. It is "outside the sphere of scouting".

 

I hope this helps you to understand the situation better.

BW

 

[Twocubdad]

This is helpful, thank you. And please bear with me, I'm not looking for an argument, I do want to understand.

 

Bob, you write: Where in ANY BSA resource does it say that ANY scout leader is to be present at an Eagle Scout's project for the purpose of observing and evaluating???

 

I would say that the last line of the ESLP workbook which requires the unit leader's signature attesting that "This project was planned, developed and carried out by the candidate" necessitates my observation and/or evaluation of the project. If I am to rely on the word of the Scout or the observation of the beneficiary, then their signatures should suffice. Why would the Eagle project requirement be any different from any other requirements that a troop leader signs for?

 

And this is consistent with the training I have received. In the local Eagle Project training course offered here annually the point was made that the troop leaders need to be present at project work days. I, myself, asked the question, so the Scoutmaster needs to attend the workdays? Answer: "How else will you know how the project was carried out?" This is why I keep asking for references to national publications or a course syllabus. If we're being given wrong info, I'd like to share the correct info with the appropriate people.

 

All your points regarding responsibility and liability make perfect sense, IF you accept the premise that an Eagle project is not a Scout activity. Our council certainly does not. One of the required items on our council advancement committee's Eagle project check list is "I have identified Youth Protection-trained adult supervision required for my project." And while it is not on the check list, I can tell you that the committee also wants two-deep leadership. Why would they require YP-trained adult supervisors if not to implement BSA YP and health & safety standards? They're certainly not expecting members of the beneficiary organization to take BSA YP training.

 

I also spoke with very knowledgeable and experienced Scouter from a neighboring council yesterday. Her husband is their district's advancement chairman. Her response to the idea that Eagle projects are not Scout activities was "that's crazy." And from the responses to this thread it doesn't appear that the councils represented here are using it either.

 

My point being, that if your interpretation of "outside the scope of Scouting" is correct (and again, I'm not arguing that it isn't) we would at minimum have to say that based on results, national is doing a poor job of communicating that interpretation and training volunteers in the appropriate methods.

 

Truth be told, this is all fairly academic. But to me, it's just another example of how fouled-up the ESLP process is, whether locally or nationally. There's not much I can do about it. I'm just trying to slog through the muck and get my Scouts through.

[Bob White]

If I am to rely on the word of the Scout or the observation of the beneficiary, then their signatures should suffice. Why would the Eagle project requirement be any different from any other requirements that a troop leader signs for?"

 

You are under the mistaken idea that the BSA program says that the unit leader is responsible for testing and signing all advancement requirements. That is not what the program says or teaches. In fact the program states quite clearly that there are several others who can sign for the scouts requirements including other adults, other scouts, and the scout himself.

 

Are you to take his word that he did the work. He is a Life Scout!!!Should you not know by now if his word is his honor or not???

 

How will you know if the project is done? Talk to the benefiting organization. Talk to the scout, go vist the site AFTER the project if you like. There are losts of ways for you to know with being there to make the scout feel like you are the one in charge and not him, because that is what the youth will think.

 

Your council advancement committee is wrong. No other scout or scout leader is required to be at a project, the scout can get his lablor from ANY source he needs. Youth Protection is an adult leader responsibility at SCOUT ACTIVITIES ONLY, and this is not a scout activity it is clearly an activity of the benefiting organization. You falsley give the impression that it is a scouting activity when you improperly inpose scout regulations on property that is not the BSA's for an organization that is not the BSA, for an activity that is not sponsored by ANY LEVEL of the BSA.

 

You cannot impose BSA youth protection on people who are not BSA members at an evant that the BSA tells you is outside the sphere of scouting. When the scout in playing on that high school team for his sports merit badge can you impose the youth protection policies on the team??? onthe audience??? It is outside the sphere of scouting, the scout is using the activity toward his advancement. The Project is no different.

 

"I also spoke with very knowledgeable and experienced Scouter from a neighboring council yesterday. Her husband is their district's advancement chairman. Her response to the idea that Eagle projects are not Scout activities was "that's crazy." And from the responses to this thread it doesn't appear that the councils represented here are using it either."

 

HHHMM I will try to be diplomatic here..."I am unimpressed!" there are 1.2 million volunteers in the BSA. even if 90 percent understand the program completely that still leaves 120,000 who don't, you obvioulsy spoke to some of them. I didn't check with a Council advancement volunteer, I checked with official manuals of the BSA , i checked with members of the national advancemnt committee and the director of BSA training, and the directors of Health and Safety and Risk Management services. They all agree that I have a correct understanding of the situation. That is why the advancement policies manual says the project is done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

Most posters on this forum never knew that patrols could camp and hike on their own even though it has been in every handbook for almost 100 years. Today they all agree that that is what the program says even though few have yet to use it in their programs. The BSA knows what their program is and they put it in writing for all to see. Some choose to never see it. Some choose to see it and not accept it. Some learn it and follow it. The volunteer ranks are made up of all three types of volunteers. You spoke with people from the first two groups. You can choose to be a person in the third group.

 

Remember the BSA is not what some people think it is, the BSA program is what the BSA says it is! whay are you asking a neighbor when you should be looking it up in the resources of the BSA?

 

The Eagle Scout rank procedures are easy. Some adults make it hard by imposing their personal ideas and standards rather than learning and following those of the BSA.

 

If scout leaders put as much effort into teaching and allowing youth to apply leadership skills BEFORE they got to the Life rank instead of after they begin writing an Eagle project plan then a lot of this process would not be getting handled so badly by so many adults.

 

One time on this forum I posted a list of questions given to about 40 district and council advancement committee volunteers at a Philmont Training Conference. Every question was on the Boy Scout advancement program and every answer was found in either the Boy Scout Hanbook or the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual and the best score anyone got was 40%. None of them even knew how many ranks there were in Boy Scouts.

 

Most adult leaders do not take the training available to them or read the manuals on their role in scouting. You do not need to read many posts on scouting forums to see that is true.

 

I gave you specif manuals and pages of the resources that support the facts I am giving you and you offered what? "i talked with another guy who hasn't read the policies and he thinks "that's crazy". Well how can I argue with that level of research?

 

The BSA has not a bad job of communicating, THEY WROTE IT DOWN IN MANUALS! Unfortunately a lot of scouters fail to read. That is hardly the fault of the BSA, they do not choose the leaders.

 

Rather than slog why not read the manuals use the official resources available to you and and lead?