Eagle service project outside sphere?

[scoutingagain]

"I accept BobWhite's premise, but I can't convince anyone on the Disitrct Advancement Committee, where I have been since 2001, that an Eagle Project is not a scouting activity."

 

I agree and could say the same thing about my District and the fact that it does cause so much consternation among many on the forum, who for the most part are probably more than casual volunteers indicates to me that what we have here is a failure to communicate, in spite of all the readily available, easily understood program documents and training.

 

So to reiterate OGE's question, why is that? what needs to change or are we volunteers just too dumb & ingnorant to understand the simple and easily understood requirements of the BSA?

 

In my mind, having all the documents related to program delivery posted on the BSA website, keyword and topic searchable would be a start. Consolodating documents related to program delivery would be another. What is in the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual" that couldn't be included in the SM Handbook or other documents intended for unit level volunteers?

 

Don't tell me the current system is fine. I think we've shown it doesn't work.

 

The national website is slowly posting more information and that's a plus. The Advancement Requirements are a good example.

 

SA

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

An Eagle project is not a scouting activity except that it is a rank requirement and the rank can not be earned without doing it. Perhaps we can call it a scouting "related" activity.

[Bob White]

SR540Beaver

 

Why not call it what the BSA calls it? An activity that is outside the sphere of scouting. The baseball game in high school that a scout plays in that fulfills a merit badge requirement is not a scouting related activity. It is a high school related activity. The youth is there representing the school, he is under school supervision, he wears the schools uniform, he is protected by school insurance, he is controlled by school rules. It is unrelated to scouting...AND YET...it can be applied to scouting advancement. The activity is "outside the sphere of scouting"

 

Label it what you like, the BSA is telling you what they say it is. But be cautious that you do not mislead others into believing that there are responsibilities, policies, and protections in place based on the belief that it is a scouting related activity when in fact it is not.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

The local school district requires 60 hours of community service to graduate

 

http://www.beth.k12.pa.us/cs/

 

Boy Scout activities are among accepted hours. My son had his Eagle project planning time accepted as hours. That was most of his school hours right there. So, does that make his Eagle Project an activity of the Bethlehem Area School District because he got service hours for the project and multiple other scouts used the time they put in for service hours for graduation required service hours ?

 

Bethlehem has a little activity here called Musikfest, I have tickets to see Jethro Tull this year, last year it was Deep Purple, Steppenwolf and the Moody Blue, (two diffierent concerts). BASD students who volunteer for Muskifest activities get credit for volunteer hours. Does that make Musikfest a BASD activity?

 

http://www.musikfest.org/(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

[SR540Beaver]

Bob,

 

I have no qualms saying that it is outside the sphere of scouting. At the same time, I realize that the benefitting organization realizes that the boy is serving them in order to earn his Eagle or that the boy is doing the project to both benefit the organization as well as to earn his Eagle as approved by the district. It is a scoting related activity for the boy done outside of scouting.

[Bob White]

Posting something on the Internet is not a magical wand that suddenly makes everyone aware of the information. They still have to find it and read it just as with the manuals.

 

While the BSA is putting more and more on the web all the time, you still have to read it! And a lot of volunteers don't...EVER.

 

Having topic specific manuals makes a lot of sense. While not perfect it does keep costs down by being able to update fewer publications at a time. When an advancement policy is added or changes the BSA only has to republish a 60 page manual rather than the entire Scoutmaster handbook.

 

"what needs to change or are we volunteers just too dumb & ignorant to understand the simple and easily understood requirements of the BSA?

 

No, I don't think we all are. But I accept the fact that volunteers come from all walks of life and that not every person has the needed tools to be successful at everything they choose to do, and not all leaders are selected based on their abilities, aptitudes, and attitudes. So there will always be a percentage of any volunteer force that will never have the ability to learn the job, or do it correctly.

 

The goal is to not be one of them, and when in the position to select others be diligent in your choosing.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

" I have no qualms saying that it is outside the sphere of scouting. At the same time, I realize that the benefitting organization realizes that the boy is serving them in order to earn his Eagle or that the boy is doing the project to both benefit the organization as well as to earn his Eagle as approved by the district. It is a scouting related activity for the boy done outside of scouting."

 

How the scout relates his leadership to the benefitting organization will depend on how he is trained by his leaders to approach the activity.

 

As an example. There is nothing in the BSA that says the scout should say "I am working on my Eagle rank can I do a project for you?"

 

He could just as easily learn to say "as a Boy Scout I have learned the importance of "service to others" I have also learned many good leadership skills. I would like to help your organization be leading a service project on your behalf. What kinds of things do you need done that I could organize and take care of for you?

 

This way the benefitting organization, AND the scout, keep in mind that what gets done for the organization is more important than the reward for the scout.

 

As for the project being scouting related to the scout...It is the BSA's hope as expressed in their Mission Statement that EVERYTHING a scout does relates to scouting and the ideals he learns through scouting, the Eagle project is not unique in that aspect is it?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

The only thing outside the sphere of Scouting in an Eagle project is that the project can't be done for the BSA.

 

Bob, if you would be so kind as to post the rest in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual under the heading "Eagle Scout Rank" it would be very helpful. Otherwise, it's like quoting one Bible passage without knowing the passages around it. Out of context.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

""As an example. There is nothing in the BSA that says the scout should say "I am working on my Eagle rank can I do a project for you?"

 

He could just as easily learn to say "as a Boy Scout I have learned the importance of "service to others" I have also learned many good leadership skills. I would like to help your organization be leading a service project on your behalf. What kinds of things do you need done that I could organize and take care of for you?"

 

Yes, perhaps in Pleasantville that could indeed happen and it possibly has here in the real world as well. I'll admit Bob that you have been involved in scouting much longer than me. However, in all my experience with the numerous childhood friends who earned Eagle as well as my experience within our large troop and our district, I've yet to hear of a boy who does not tell the organization why he is doing the project. He is doing it to earn his Eagle rank in the Boy Scouts of America and as part of the requirement, he is doing it for an organization outside the scouting sphere. The boy himself is involved in a scouting (rank advancement) activity even if everyone else involved in the project is not. Most know why he is doing it and many who might not normally participate do so to assist the boy in earning Eagle.

 

Bob, you are splitting philosophical and semantic hairs.

[Bob White]

I am saying that the real world of scouting is what you make it.

 

How the scout aopproaches his advancement and how he approaches people about his project will depend largely on what he is taught to do.

 

Teach him the way to act and that is he probably what he will do.

But if no one is teaching him the right thing then chances are good he will not know what the right thing to do is.

 

When ever I discuss Patrol activities with Scoutmasters the majority always say the same thing, "I don't have any scouts who could do that!" As if it was the scouts fault for not having the skills. Well Duh! Who was supposed to be developing the skills of the scouts so that they can suceed independently???

 

If nobody is teaching them then how are they supposed to know what to do. If you want to change the way that scouts view advancement and their projects...then just teach them.

[acco40]

Another "legend" - A Scout can't sleep in his tent by himself.

 

Question - what is this merit badge scenario some have referenced in this thread? I admit I skimmed some posts quickly.

 

Bob White - I tend to agree with you but consider this. During a Scout activity there are some things I do because it is in the G2SS and I wish to comply to be "legal." As a Scoutmaster who mentors and approves (serves as a gatekeeper along with the Committee Chair) the initial ELSP write-up, I sometimes will advise the Scout to follow some G2SS guidelines because I think they are good guidelines to follow - scout activity or not. Not all mind you, but some. So I'll advise the scout to follow them.

 

Sometimes I'll wear my troop t-shirt when working on a Scotu's Eagle Project. I know I don't need to but it's sort of like wearing your team's softball jersey to a bar after the game (for a few root beers). It shows a sense of comraderie. Samething for can drives, etc. when raising money for Eagle Projects, units or patrols.

[Bob White]

acco40

I think a candidate who uses the leadership skills and chooses to include in his plan safety lessons that he has learned through scouting shows that he understands the purpose and goal of project exercise.

 

That is different than people believing, or being led to believe, that the BSA policies are actually in force or that it is a youth's responsibility to enforce them.

 

Wearing a t-shirt is not a problem, the problem comes in wearing a uniform, it gives the impression, whether intentionally or not, that this is a scouting activity carrying the endoresement and protections of the BSa, Council, or unit. It is none of those and so wearing the scout uniform and implying that it is would be inappropriate.

 

The merit badge scenario is this:

When a scout participates in team sport at school and uses it to fulfill a merit badge requirement, the activities with the team are not scouting activities, it is not controlled by BSA policies, the BSA at no level insures any of the participants or property, and he should not wear a scout uniform while he participates. The activity is "outside the sphere of scouting" yet he can apply it to his advancement, the same is true of the Eagle Service Project.

 

BW

[Beavah]

Golly day! Is this thread still goin' on??!

 

It's entirely true that a lad does a service project to benefit a local community agency, not a project for his troop, the OA, his council, another council, a scout camp in Iowa that got hit by a tornado, or any other group within the "sphere" of Scouting. It's a project where we want the lad to reach out to meet needs he finds within his community at large.

 

It's almost entirely false that he can't/shouldn't wear his uniform in performing the project, and entirely false that BSA general liability coverage does not apply. In fact we routinely issue insurance certificates and list benefitting organizations as additional insured on BSA policies in support of lads who are doing their Eagle projects. Many organizations now require proof of insurance before they'll allow the work to proceed. Some councils require Local Tour Permits to be filed for Eagle project work, which should put to rest da uniform question and other questions about whether it's a scout activity.

 

Now, might some local district folks encourage people to think about it in the way BobWhite suggests? Sure. The lad is doing a project to benefit a local agency, and it's appropriate for folks to think about it as being his independent project. Just the same way we want patrols and patrol leaders to be independent, eh? It's a good thing to emphasize so that we adults don't get in the way too much. But just like we review and approve the boys' independently developed calendar of activities, we review and approve a lad's Eagle project proposal. Whether it's the troop annual calendar or the Eagle Project, that review and approval makes it a Scoutin' activity.

 

Otherwise I reckon a lad's project could use ATV's to take boys out with chainsaws to clear a new trail, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FireKat]

Thank you, Beavah, I was just about to ask about insurance for the boy durning an ELSP. Now, does the insurance also cover any of the troop or neighboring troop members who work on the project?

[Bob White]

Beavah is incorrect, councils do not routinely supply insurance certificates,since it is not a council event they would have no reason to,especially since no other scout or scout unit is required to be present. The council would have no reason to provide non-scouts or non-scout groups BSA insurance protection.

 

The candidate would be covered by the liability insurance of the benefitting organization, just as a worker on BSA property would be covered by BSA liability protection, or as a neighbor helping you on a project on your property would be covered by your insurance.

 

If the benefitting organization has ATVs that they use to transport people the BSA has no authority to tell them that they cannot use them. Since The safety rule regarding the use of chainsaws refers to youth members on a scouting activity or on BSA property, to have a trained and capable person operating a chain saw off scout property and at an activity that is outside the sphere of scouting as the BSA specifically say the project is, would not be inviolation of any BSA policy.

 

The benefitting organization would be liable for injurioes would probanly instruct the scout that a an adult must use the chainsaqw, or hopefully the scout has been properly trained over the course of his scouting carreer to realize that only a trained adult should operate a chainsaw. But since it is not a scouting activity and the work is done by non-scouts outside of BSA property the BSA would policies have no authority.

 

If a scout unit were present at the project their members, and their members only would be subject to the policies of the BSa, not the non-members that were present.

 

The members that were present as part of a scout unit participating at the projects would be have the benefit of the BSA accident insurance and liability protection, but NOT the non-members preset.

 

EXAMPLE

Lets say that a community volunteer whohappens to be a scout leader is in charge of a community event such as a Rodeo. And a troop volunteers to pick up litter at the event. It is not a scout event even though a scout leader is in charge and scouts are present, the event though a restricted event for the troop to sponsor is not a restricted event for the scouter since he is not doing it as a representative of scouting but doiing it outside the sphere of scouting. The troop working at the event is protected by BSA accidet insurance and BSA liability protection, but the scouter in charge is not since he is doing this event as a community volunteer not as a scout leader, nor is any other participant or attendee protected.

 

If a scout working at the activity were injured they would first be covered by the liability coverage of the event organization, secondly but their personal or family insurance and any fees not covered by the first two would then be covered by the BSA accident insurance.