Eagle service project outside sphere?

[OldGreyEagle]

BobWhite posted while I was doing my research, but I move on. Check this, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ageguides.pdf its the Age Appropriate Guide for scouting activities. Check the section titled "Tools", note the last category "Power Tools" and who can use them.

 

Let the kids use a power drill, stave off carpal tunnel syndrome for a few more years...

[Bob White]

Bear in mind the Age Appropriate Guidelines are just that ...guidelines. That are not policies. The policies on tools are found in the Guide to Safe Scouting. And nowhere do they prohibit scouts of any age from using power tools. The BSA teaches that before ANYONE uses a tool they should be trained, capable, and under appropriate supervision.

 

I was a Webelos Den leader over 20 years ago and we had Cubs using dremel tools (a power tool) to shape and finish pinewood derby cars. It was allowed then and it is allowed today.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gunny2862]

Thanks for the resource OGE!

 

Well, maybe I do need to do more reading Bob, but if the no use of Power Tools is they way the Council teaches it(and they do), and that every Local Scout Leader I talk to reinforces it, then I don't really get a correction until I expose my ignorance here. Which while it's part of the reason I come doesn't mean I appreciate the smackdown every time you call me on something.

 

So back to the discussion at hand...

"BW, You said,"You agree that the candidate is not formally representing the BSA or even the troop since this is a personal project, and you know that the BSA says that it is not appropriate to wear the uniform when not representing scouting. Did I understand you correctly?"

and in answer I re-present what I wrote that prompted our question - especially the last sentence of it..

 

And if a Scout is going to meet with an a non-Scouting member of Society and present his work as being his Eagle project it is my opinion that he should wear the Field uniform to any introductory or planning meetings he goes to in conjunction with this project. For the reason that he is(italics added) representing the Troop, Scouting and the BSA with his interactions with these folks, even if he isn't formally(italics added) doing so on their behalf."

[Bob White]

Gunny as you do some reading about the Scouting program one of the things you will find is that the local scout volunteers do not set the policeis and procedures of the BSA program, nor are personal opinions a factor. The national office of the BSA determines polices and procedures of the program and they publish them in several easy to find resources so that myths and legends do not need to be passed from one untrained scouter to another. Each leader has the ability to learn the actual information from the actual authority, the BSA.

 

As for your repeated passage, it is important to understand that the Scout is not representing the BSA at any level. This is not a troop project so he is not representing the troop. It is not a council or district project, it is not a national BSA project. it is a person service that the candidate is providing the benefitting organization. He is not representing the BSA, he is using his service "outside the sphere of scouting" to apply toward a BSA rank just as the scout playing on the highshool baseball team is not playing as a scout but is applying the activity to his BSa advancement.

 

When the candidate meets outside the troop in the planning and carrying out of this project he represents the benefitting organization and the project NOT the BSA. In fact when it comes to procurriung the needed resources for the project the uniform regulations specifically prohibit the scout from representing himself as a representative of the BSA or from using the name of image of the BSa to procure donations for an outside organization.

 

The problem here is that people are are emotional over this being related to "Eagle Scout " and they are not looking at the actual facts of the activity and how the uniform and advancement policies relate to it. They are basing their "opinion" on habits and folk lore just as you did with your belief about the use of power tools, rather than objectively look at the BSA policies and procedures that govern the activity.

 

You will find in scouting that "tradition" is often another way of saying "we have done it wrong for so long that now we actually believe it's right,"

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[RememberSchiff]

Nope.

 

The Eagle Candidate identifies himself as a scout when he first meets the benefiting organization. He is a representative of the BSA and hopefully one of our best representatives, but more importantly he is also representing himself - it is his neck on the line and not the BSA. He may decide to wear his uniform during parts of his project not involving fund raising. He does not represent the benefiting organization, he is performing HIS scout service project for them.

 

One part of the Guide to Safe Scouting that applies to his scout service project is Youth Member Behavior Guidelines, Member Responsibilities

 

"All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit."

 

In short, he's expected to act like a scout while performing HIS scout service project; he is a representative of the BSA. If he fails to meet this expectation, the District Eagle Board will likely reject his Eagle application.

 

It's that simple.

 

 

[Bob White]

So Schiff, you are convinced that the Eagle Project is a scout Activity? Tell me what elements that are common to all scout activities can be found in an Eagle Serviuce Project?

[FireKat]

simple,

Service to others.

Along with-

Adult association (oversite, approval)

Leadership

 

How can an ELSP not be part of a boy's BSA career? The BSA does oversite, approval, and reconition.

 

All the BSA is trying to do is get the scout to look outside the BSA and become a member of the community. Plenty of scout do projects for the BSA as service hours. This is a gental push of a fledgling eagle out of the BSA nest.(This message has been edited by firekat)

[Bob White]

Service to others is not a part of every scout activity, nor is adult association,

 

No one said that the project was not a part of the boy's BSA carrer, it just is not a scout activity. It is an activity done by a scout, but there are scouts who are on the wrestling team, that does not make wrestling a Scout activity. There are scouts on the Speach team, that does not make a Speech Event a scout activity. The fact that a scout is invloved does not make it a scout activity.

 

There is no such thing as a individual scout activity. All activities take place at a Patrol, Troop, Council, Regional, or National level.

 

Eagle candidate serve projects are none of these. All scout activities have some things in common. What are they? Which level of activity does an Eagle prject fall in?

 

"All the BSA is trying to do is get the scout to look outside the BSA and become a member of the community. Plenty of scout do projects for the BSA as service hours. This is a gental push of a fledgling eagle out of the BSA nest."

 

While that might be your opinion Firkat, that is not at all what the BSA says is the difference between the two types of service nor is that the stated goal for the Eagle project.

 

And are you suggesting that it is appropriate to wear the BSA uniform when doing any service project? Because that would be incorrect as well.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I can follow BobWhite's position and understand what he is saying.

 

The question I have is why does the statement that an Eagle Scout leadership project is not a scouting activity cause so much consternation?

 

I accept BobWhite's premise, but I can't convince anyone on the Disitrct Advancement Committee, where I have been since 2001, that an Eagle Project is not a scouting activity. What would need to change to have scouters understand that an Eagle Scout Project is not a Scouting Activity?(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

[Bob White]

"What would need to change to have scouter understand that an Eagle Scout Project is not a Scouting Activity?"

 

That's a great question OGE and I wish it had an easy answer. As with most problems with any organizqtion I think it comes down to training and selecting the right people for the job.

 

That fact that things change is not unique to scouting, nor is that fact that some people refuse to change a unique situation to scouting. I think if people got past the emotional grasp of the "Eagle" qand simply took an objective look at the Project they woud see that is is done "outside the sphere of scouting".

 

Consider these elements:

-It is done off of scouting property

-for the benefit of an organization other than scouting.

-No other scouts or scout leaders are required to be present.

-No Scouting rule or regulation can be imposed on anyone there who is not with a scout unit or not there as a scout leader.

-The BSA accident insurance and BSA liabilty protection does not cover anyone or anything at the project, unless they are there as part of a unit activity.

-While a unit may attend the project as a unit activity, the BSA states clearly that the project itself cannot be done as part of a unit activity.

-The SM, Committee and District Advancement committee have NO AUTHORITY over the project and cannot stop the candidate from doing the project, they can only determine whether the activity can be applied to the advancement or not.

 

When you consider these points there is no way that this is a scouting activity, it is simply an activity that the youth can apply to his scouting. Just as a scout on a high school sports team can apply the activity to his merit badge but the games are not scout activities and he would not wear a scout uniform. The project is no different.

 

I honestly believe the only solution to situations like this and other "traditions" and urban legends that so many scouters accept as fact is education. People need to learn their jobs. take the training, read a few short manuals. And we need to be choosing people who are willing to learn.

 

Finally, people need to get rid of the mind set of "if everyone else does it this way then they must be right". A leader should be capable of at least a small amount of independent research and rational thought.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

OK. I need to lift my self imposed ban.

 

Consider these elements:

-It is done off of scouting property

-for the benefit of an organization other than scouting.

-No other scouts or scout leaders are required to be present.

-No Scouting rule or regulation can be imposed on anyone there who is

not with a scout unit or not there as a scout leader.

-The BSA accident insurance and BSA liabilty protection does not cover anyone or anything at the project, unless they are there as part of a unit activity.

-While a unit may attend the project as a unit activity, the BSA states clearly that the project itself cannot be done as part of a unit activity.

 

I agree 100% with the above.

 

-The SM, Committee and District Advancement committee have NO AUTHORITY over the project and cannot stop the candidate from doing the project, they can only determine whether the activity can be applied to the advancement or not.

 

The DAM approves the project therefore giving them authority.

 

Can a Girl Scout complete an Eagle Service Project? Nope, she can only help.

 

Can a member of the 4H Club complete an Eagle Service Project? Nope, they can only help.

 

To complete an Eagle Service Project one must be a registered youth member of the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

I didnt say it was easy. The Troop I serve has a youth in it who is doing his Eagle Project. It will involve installing a playground for the Sunday school of his church. His Senior High Youth Group ( I think thats what they are called) will supply the help. No Scouts, other than the Eagle candidate will help, its a church/youth group thing. So, I can imagine if you told any of the youth helping, short of the Eagle candidate, that they were participating in a scouting activity, I can understand a few more than quizzical looks.

 

We had another scout who wanted to run his church's Vacation bible School as his Eagle project. He enlisted a few of the troop youth to help. With questions about who would be leading whom, the project never got approved, the youth ran the Vacation Bible School and the youth enlisted helped as they said they would but it wasnt counted as an Eagle Project because it wasnt approved before it started and the youth admitted it was his fault it didnt get approved, but he promised the pastor he would do it and he did it. Quite well as I understand. It was a great project, it benefitted the community but it didnt count as an eagle project, it could have had the proper procedure been followed, but the scout fouled up and it didnt.

 

I may have a new gimmick to make people think. I have turned many on their ear with the BSA does not prohibit sheath knives statement, this may be another. (Understand that if a Camp does not allow sheath knives, then they can't be used. Always wonder how they slice cake, cut meat, etc with a jack knife though)

[Bob White]

The sheath knife legend is another one that still lingers and has for years, just as tearing corners off of a Toten'chip card, having to wear a uniform when traveling to be covered by insurance, scoutmasters having to sign Scout Spirit, just a few of the urban legends that still infiltrate the scouting program.

 

I know we did a thread on this years ago, but with so many new leaders and new forum members maybe this is a good time to revisit those myths of scouting and get people thinking about what really is and isn't a part of the scouting program.

[FScouter]

Similarly, the church pastor might scratch his head quizzically if someone from the district advancement committee told him the playground project would have to altered before it could be "approved", or if the kids were not allowed to use power tools, or if there had to be a "tour permit".

[Bob White]

I think a lot of this comes from overzealous scoutmasters who retire their way onto district committees, and rather than get retrained they try to form the actions of the committee into "their opinion" of scouting rather than learn the job.

 

I know we have that same battle in the district I serve with the Eagle project committee. The role of the district advancement committee is not to tell the scout how to plan or lead the project. Their job is to see that the BSA requirements relating to what must done BEFOTRE the work begins has been completed. THAT'S ALL.

 

It's a 15-minute task at best that does not require the scout to be present. Everything the committee needs to know can be found in the project workbook.

 

OGE's example of what happened with a scout is a perfect example. If this was in fact a district or council event then the district could have stopped it. But they have no authority to do so because it is not a scout activity. It is an activity "outside the sphere of scouting" that is applied toward scout advancement and nothing more. The district's role is to determine if the requirements set byu the BSA have been met and if work can be applied within scout advancement or not.