Eagle service project outside sphere?

[Bob White]

It is not the BSA's project. It is only the BSA's recognition. The project belongs to an organization that is outside the sphere of scouting.

 

Anyone can lead a service project for anyone they wish without the permission of the BSA. For it to be applied for advancement the BSA requires that the plan go through specific steps within the BSA. But that does not make it the BSA's project, only the BSA's recognition.

 

The BSA cannot tell the candidate that he cannot do the work for the benefit of the organization that the project belongs to. All the BSA can do is tell the candidate whether or not the work can be applied toward his BSA advancement.

 

If you look back at the merit badge example I supplied there is no difference.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[scoutmomma]

OK, yes, certainly anyone can do a service project without the BSA's permission. I thought you were saying it wasn't necessary for an Eagle candidate to get BSA permission to do an Eagle Leadership Service Project. Thanks for the clarification.

[RememberSchiff]

Yes Ed good memory, one recent thread discussed this for 11 pages before being locked.

Uniforms - "Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP"

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=191183

 

Dustoff, I suggest you ask these questions to your District Eagle Board.

[John-in-KC]

The horse must not be dead yet.

 

 

[evmori]

I know I shouldn't but ................

 

This topic is about Eagle service projects, not general rank service projects. Big difference. And you are correct, scoutmomma, an Eagle service project requires the approval of the District Advancement Committee. The outside the sphere of Scouting refers to the project not benefiting the BSA. It must be done for an organization other than the BSA.

 

I will not post in this thread anymore & suggest it be locked by the mods before it get out of hand.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutingagain]

Gunny I appreciate the response. My point was that this issue, like many BSA policy and procedures issues is not fully documented in any one easily accessible source. Different documents use different phrases to describe the same intent.

 

Bob White does a good job of explaining these many documents and what their intent is. I can rephrase my statement earlier regarding confusion and apply it to the average adult volunteer. Even those that take basic training.

 

Even after a decent explanation, there still seems to be confusion as to when it is or isn't appropriate for a scout to wear his uniform when working on his Eagle Scout service project. While I accept and understand BW's explanation, I also know what my District Advancement Chair likes to see, and that's scouts wearing uniforms, or activity shirts when either working on a project or when an Eagle candidate is presenting the project to those "outside the sphere of scouting."

 

So I'm not saying I'm confused. I'm saying like many other aspects of BSA policies and procedures I see plenty of different interpretations, even by those one would expect to have a full understanding.

 

SA

 

 

[Bob White]

John

Not all topics are going do be of interest to all forum members. There are many, many threads where some people choose not to participate. Why should this thread be any different? People interested in this thread should be allowed to pursue the topic under the same conditions that any other topic should be pursued, with courteousy and thoughtfullness.

 

It seems interesting that some of the same posters who do not want to see their posts inhibited by moderators are prefectly willing to see an entire thread shut down simply because they are not personally interested in the topic themselves.

 

If someone cannot constructively participate in the thread then let their posts be removed, or let them choose to participate in a different thread which does interest them. But why should those who want to discuss this scouting related topic not be allowed to?

[FScouter]

"So I'm not saying I'm confused. I'm saying like many other aspects of BSA policies and procedures I see plenty of different interpretations, even by those one would expect to have a full understanding."

 

Right. The confusing part is trying to correlate the myriad (mis)interpretations of others. Paraphrasing Bob White, don't waste a lot of time reading more into policies and procedures that what is there. It's OK if the other guy has interpreted things wrongly.

 

[Bob White]

And always keep in mind that just because some have a different interpretation it doesn't mean that everyone is right.

 

And just because a majority believes in thing doesn't mean the minority is wrong.

 

Sometimes you need to be able to discuss different opinions have the the opportunity to consider the evidence to determine what is right and what is wrong.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gunny2862]

ScoutingAgain,

True.

My closer to home, Committee, likes to see the Scouts in uniform (Field or Activity) when out doing these projects also. The District and Council as groups haven't said anything about it that I know of but I know certain District Advancement members who like it that way also.

 

And if a Scout is going to meet with an a non-Scouting member of Society and present his work as being his Eagle project it is my opinion that he should wear the Field uniform to any introductory or planning meetings he goes to in conjunction with this project. For the reason that he is representing the Troop, Scouting and the BSA with his interactions with these folks, even if he isn't formally doing so on their behalf.

[Bob White]

You agree that the candidate is not formally representing the BSA or even the troop since this is a personal project, and you know that the BSA says that it is not appropriate to wear the uniform when not representing scouting. Did I understand you correctly?

 

And yet you support the scout wearing the uniform when not representing scouting based on your opinion rather than the elements of the BSA uniform regulations. Is that correct?

 

Remember we are not talking about what others do, or what others think, we are discussing what the uniform regulations are, and how that relates to the the fact that the project is not a scout activity but an activity of the benefitting organization outside of scouting.

 

Again, consider the merit badge scenario, there is no difference between that and the project. Put aside the emotion of being related to "Eagle Scout" and look at the specific elements activity. It is an outside activity not a scouting activity.

 

[John-in-KC]

It's not outside when:

 

- It requires approval to proceed from the youth member's Scoutmaster, Advisor, or Skipper. (ACP&P p 27, rh column, 2d paragraph.)

 

- It requires approval to proceed from the youth member's unit Committee.(ACP&P p 27, rh column, 2d paragraph.)

 

- It requires approval to proceed from the District or Council Advancement Committee.(ACP&P p 27, rh column, 2d paragraph.)

 

- It requires approval of the finished project from the Eagle Board of Review.(ACP&P p 28, lh column, 1st paragraph.)

 

Do the writer-editors at Irving need to clean up the language? Yes! As Beavah has stated, more than once, the writer-editors employed by National do not always cross-compare and cross-parse their words. This is an epic example.

 

Bottom Line, to me comes from p 27, lh column, last paragraph: "Service to others is important. Work involving council property or other BSA activities is not acceptable for an Eagle Scout service project. The service project also may not be performed for a business, or be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser."

 

Like Ed, I'm done here.

[Bob White]

the BSA does not approve whether or not the candidate can do the project! They only determine whether the work can be applied toward advancement. The candidate can lead the project whether or not the BSA agrees to apply to it to advancement. Why can the candidate do that? Because it is not the BSA's project it is the beneffitting organizations project and the candidate leads it as a volunteer for the beneffiting organization.

 

Let me ask this question. At a project led by an Eagle candidate, with no scout units present (as none are required), what BSA youth protection policies or Guide to Safe Scouting policies must the project abide by?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gunny2862]

What John said, Ditto.

 

BW, You said,"You agree that the candidate is not formally representing the BSA or even the troop since this is a personal project, and you know that the BSA says that it is not appropriate to wear the uniform when not representing scouting. Did I understand you correctly?"

and in answer I re-present what I wrote that prompted our question - especially the last sentence of it..

 

And if a Scout is going to meet with an a non-Scouting member of Society and present his work as being his Eagle project it is my opinion that he should wear the Field uniform to any introductory or planning meetings he goes to in conjunction with this project. For the reason that he is(italics added) representing the Troop, Scouting and the BSA with his interactions with these folks, even if he isn't formally(italics added) doing so on their behalf.

 

Excuse me BobWhite, but does that mean he gets to use power tools too? Since he's exempted from YPT I guess that means he doesn't have to follow the GSS as he's doing it either? Or set those GSS boundaries for any Scouts who do help him with their labor.

 

I may be wrong but I think our DAC and SE would have an issue with either of those interpretations - especially if the Scout wants it to count for his advancement or puts other "off the clock" Scouts at risk while working his project. I know as a parent I'd have an issue with the freedom from the rules approach you "in this instance" are advocating.

 

And if the helping Scouts are truly off-the-clock why do they get to use those hours of service for THEIR advancement. If it's outside of Scouting the way YOU are describing it it would seem apparent that they wouldn't be able to drag those service hours back into Scouting either.

 

Point of order, ALL of my comments on this thread are centered on a Scout who is trying to utilize the results of his project for his advancement to Eagle. To flip back and forth as you SEEM to be doing is disingenuous and below the level of the quality postings you usually provide(even if I disagree they are still usually excellent posts).

[Bob White]

"Excuse me Bob White, but does that mean he gets to use power tools too? "

 

An excellent question, and it exposes yet ANOTHER scouting urban legend.

 

Please show me ANYWHERE in ANY BSA training or ANY BSA resource where

a Boy Scout is prohibited from using power tools. It does not exist. There are only two tools which the BSA specifically prohibits Scouts from using, a chain saw and a log splitter...that's it!

 

It is hard to believe such myths continue especially consider the wealth of training and information available for any leader to learn the facts from.

 

Can a Scout use a power tool? A Scout can do anything that he has been properly trained to use under proper supervision providing it is not specifically prohibited by the BSA. And except for the two specific tools named in the Guide to safe Scouting there is nothing that prohibits scouts from using power tools.

 

Can a non-scouting member use a power tool... well certainly the BSA has no authority to say they can't. The BSA has no authority over a non-member not on scout property.

 

If a scout unit as a troop activity participates in ANY service project then those scouts are subject to BSA regulations NOT there as guests of the troop, and who are not on BSA property. Plus, the candidate is not the person responsible for seeing that the unit adheres to BSA policy. The registered adult leaders are responsible for the safety of the scouts just as in any troop outing. The candidate is responsible for leading the project and the project belongs to the benefitting organization not the BSA at any level.

 

I welcome anyone who knows of any BSA reference material that prohibits scouts from using power tools (other than the two specific ones I have mentioned) to post that refence in this thread.

 

Gunny

What your SE is really going to disagree with is the thought that a candidates project is a BSA activity which would meann that all the people involved would be covered by BSA accident insurance, and the BSA would be liable for damages or injuries at the project site...cause they are not.

 

Because it is not a scout activity and it is done "outside the sphere of scouting".