What would you have done?

[theysawyoucomin']

Momma,

Two emails and one face to face meeting with the boy have taken place since the BOR.

 

 

Thank you all for your opinions

[scoutmomma]

What did Smitty say in response to the two emails and in the face-to-face meeting?

[NeilLup]

Rightly or wrongly, you did hold the Board of Review and passed the boy. I believe that attempting to nullify that action by not sending in the form or other such action is poor form and would be immediately reversed on appeal if the boy chose to appeal.

 

I would suggest that the question is now whether he becomes an Eagle Scout or not and whether you will go through a similar exercise or worse in 6 months.

 

You need to decide if, based on his current actions, you believe that he will not be "worthy" of being an Eagle Scout.

 

There are two requirements which he must be meeting at this time or he stands no chance:

 

1) Six months tenure

2) Six months holding a position of responsibility

 

What is his current position of responsibility. If he doesn't hold such a position, for even one day during this six month period, he can't become an Eagle Scout. If you want to ensure that he will not become an Eagle Scout, he needs only be removed from that position of responsibility and his journey on the Eagle trail is over.

 

Now lets look at that matter of apologizing to the Scoutmaster. It would seem that has become a real sticking point. This could be because:

 

1) He doesn't think he did anything wrong

2) He is too embarrassed to do it

3) He is non-verbal and is uncomfortable doing it

4) He is too macho to do it

5) Some other reason

 

One possibility would be to "trap" him the way one would a six year old. One of the members of the Board of Review takes him aside to talk with him for a moment. The Scoutmaster then just "happens" to come by and the BOR member asks the Scout "Do you have something to say to Mr. XXXXXX." If the Scout says "I dunno." Then the BOR member asks "Weren't you going to apologize to him."

 

Under those circumstances, the words "I apologize" may come out of the Scout's mouth. Whether he would mean it or not is another matter.

 

Another possibility would be a very pointed counseling session and that is what I would recommend. In this, one of the BOR members takes the Scout aside and says "At your BOR, you agreed to apologize to the Scoutmaster. You haven't done it. What is the problem?" The Scout will probably say "I'll get around to it." Then the BOR member says "I'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it now. You've had plenty of time and plenty of reminders to do it. You haven't done it. Are you afraid to apologize? Do you think that you don't have anything to apologize for? Do you think that you did nothing wrong? Do you think that you had no choice? I truly want to understand and to work with you. What is going on?"

 

You go from there. You probably will get some kind of apology and I would have the SM nearby so that he can make his apology right then if he so chooses. If he says "I'll do it," you ask "How 'bout if I get the SM right now so you can." You may hear that his parents are pushing him to make Eagle Scout and he really doesn't care about it that much. If possible, though, I'd not let it lie with the apology. You want to show and teach this Scout how adults handle this kind of difficult circumstance. You want to treat him like the adult which he will be in 5 months and now like a child. Whether he makes Eagle Scout or not is secondary to whether he learns from the situation.

[NeilLup]

Rightly or wrongly, you did hold the Board of Review and passed the boy. I believe that attempting to nullify that action by not sending in the form or other such action is poor form and would be immediately reversed on appeal if the boy chose to appeal.

 

I would suggest that the question is now whether he becomes an Eagle Scout or not and whether you will go through a similar exercise or worse in 6 months.

 

You need to decide if, based on his current actions, you believe that he will not be "worthy" of being an Eagle Scout.

 

There are two requirements which he must be meeting at this time or he stands no chance:

 

1) Six months tenure

2) Six months holding a position of responsibility

 

What is his current position of responsibility. If he doesn't hold such a position, for even one day during this six month period, he can't become an Eagle Scout. If you want to ensure that he will not become an Eagle Scout, he needs only be removed from that position of responsibility and his journey on the Eagle trail is over.

 

Now lets look at that matter of apologizing to the Scoutmaster. It would seem that has become a real sticking point. This could be because:

 

1) He doesn't think he did anything wrong

2) He is too embarrassed to do it

3) He is non-verbal and is uncomfortable doing it

4) He is too macho to do it

5) Some other reason

 

One possibility would be to "trap" him the way one would a six year old. One of the members of the Board of Review takes him aside to talk with him for a moment. The Scoutmaster then just "happens" to come by and the BOR member asks the Scout "Do you have something to say to Mr. XXXXXX." If the Scout says "I dunno." Then the BOR member asks "Weren't you going to apologize to him."

 

Under those circumstances, the words "I apologize" may come out of the Scout's mouth. Whether he would mean it or not is another matter.

 

Another possibility would be a very pointed counseling session and that is what I would recommend. In this, one of the BOR members takes the Scout aside and says "At your BOR, you agreed to apologize to the Scoutmaster. You haven't done it. What is the problem?" The Scout will probably say "I'll get around to it." Then the BOR member says "I'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it now. You've had plenty of time and plenty of reminders to do it. You haven't done it. Are you afraid to apologize? Do you think that you don't have anything to apologize for? Do you think that you did nothing wrong? Do you think that you had no choice? I truly want to understand and to work with you. What is going on?"

 

You go from there. You probably will get some kind of apology and I would have the SM nearby so that he can make his apology right then if he so chooses. If he says "I'll do it," you ask "How 'bout if I get the SM right now so you can." You may hear that his parents are pushing him to make Eagle Scout and he really doesn't care about it that much. If possible, though, I'd not let it lie with the apology. You want to show and teach this Scout how adults handle this kind of difficult circumstance. You want to treat him like the adult which he will be in 5 months and now like a child. Whether he makes Eagle Scout or not is secondary to whether he learns from the situation.

[theysawyoucomin']

Momma,

He has not replied to the emails and he mumbled something undecipherable to the friend's parent/comm member.

 

I really appreciate all the comments.

 

I guess I wonder why this 17 1/2 year old can't "man up".

 

We have had 17 year olds murder people, win the Medal Of Honor on Iwo Jima, run a family farm, father children, earn a million thru running a business. Many things, from good to bad to worse and everything in between.

 

Yet this one kid can't say, "Mr. Guggenheim, what I did was wrong. I know that now. I was wrong to blame this whole thing you. I will work to patch up my lack of integrity"

 

There is a good chance I will perform his SMC in 6 months. Should I let him know now that I will not give him a positive Eagle review based on this incident?

 

Based on page 26 of pub#33088 policies and proced he can always appeal.

 

 

One other point. We passed him without the SM apology because the SM had gone home. It was 10pm or 10:30 at the completion and some people have to work in the morning.

 

Had we not erred on the side of helping this person we should have said "let's put off this judgement for a month or two". Of course then the Eagle would have been unattainable.

 

Top 3% of Scouting? I think not.

 

[theysawyoucomin']

The Boys will elect him to something as the kid really is a leader, sometimes good, sometimes to Hades in a handbasket.

Once the kid took Scouts into his family's van( his father drove to the camping trip) and showed fellow Scouts xrated movies on the tv mounted in the van. We found out much too late to kill the boy.

 

Niell,

I'm not going to corner the boy like a 6 year old. "If you old enough to make the poop sandwich , you are old enough to eat it"

If you are man that is.

 

If you need to be treated like a 6 year old, I won't teach you how to use a pocket knife let alone award you with the silver chicken.

 

Not discounting your comments just getting more and more fed up with the kid as time goes on.

[theysawyoucomin']

The Boys will elect him to something as the kid really is a leader, sometimes good, sometimes to Hades in a handbasket.

Once the kid took Scouts into his family's van( his father drove to the camping trip) and showed fellow Scouts xrated movies on the tv mounted in the van. We found out much too late to kill the boy.

 

Niell,

I'm not going to corner the boy like a 6 year old. "If you old enough to make the poop sandwich , you are old enough to eat it"

If you are man that is.

 

If you need to be treated like a 6 year old, I won't teach you how to use a pocket knife let alone award you with the silver chicken.

 

Not discounting your comments just getting more and more fed up with the kid as time goes on.

[NeilLup]

Hello,

 

Experience is that telling a Scout at his last SM conference that he is not Eagle Scout material or having that happen at the Board of Review may well produce a situation where an appeal, if made, would be upheld. If he meets all the requirements in the next 6 months (pretty unlikely from the way you have described him) then things could become very difficult if the effort is made to reject him at the SM Conference or BOR. Actually, if you look at the wording of the requirements, one does not need to "pass" the SM Conference, simply participate in one. And it doesn't need to be the last requirement passed, simply some time as a Life Scout.

 

One thing you can do is make sure that everything he does from here on out is do everyting by himself. No help from the Troop Committee, etc.

 

Or refuse to let him have a leadership position or stand for election.

 

But if he did get his tail in gear and get all the requirements done, it would be very, very difficult for a BOR to turn him down based on one incident involving his Life Scout Board of Review.

[Nike]

Wash your hands with no guilt. Y'all were really nice to even do the BoR and spend so much time on it. The kid's an ungrateful, spoiled brat. You tried. He failed. Make him a learning oppurtunity for the rest of the boys.