issues with eagle candidate

[cheffy]

Maybe I'm posting on the wrong forum but here goes.

We have an Eagle candidate in the Troop that is giving me as Scoutmaster a real challenge/headache.

He has finished his project and his write up is in it's final stages.

The issues are..

His POR is Scribe. he has held this positio for over a year and has not taken it seriously and never really done the job. we have had several discussions with him about this but no change.

his meeting attendance and trooop involvement are lackluster. He only shows up when he needs to get something signed off or when he needs help with his project.

There is also the rumor that he has gotten some girl pregnant.

Not my most stellar Scout.

He's asking for a Scoutmaster Conf. for Eagle so he can finish up.

 

my thought is to call him today and reinterate the fact that he needs to do his POR for 6 months and be more involved before we have this Eagle SM conf.

 

I know if I let it go it will bite him at his BOR.

Any other thoughts.

Thanks.

 

 

[allangr1024]

Lets face it. Eagle rank is not just about getting the requirements done. It is about a commitment to living life according to the scout oath and law. I would want to know that the scout is ready to commit to that value system.

 

Only the SM can make that determination, and that is what the SM conference is all about. He must sign off on the Scout Spirit requirement and the conference. He must play gatekeeper here. He must evaluate the scouts service and must converse with the scout about the oath and law. He may have to have a serious talk unofficially with the scout and let him know what he expects about the active participation requirement.

 

As for the rumors, you can do nothing unless evidence exists, and the scout is defiant, and even then I am not sure it applies. That one is sticky. I am not sure I would want to act as judge over actions out of the scouting environment. I have to stay within the bounds of what is presented to me.

 

 

[scoutldr]

The requirement is to hold a POR for 6 months since the Life BOR. It doesn't have to be the same POR for 6 months, nor does it have to be 6 continuous months. The quality of performance is up to the SM to judge.

 

The rumor is just that...not actionable. I once saw a scout admit to "living in sin" with is GF and the baby that he fathered (in her parents' house). The EBOR (troop committee) denied Eagle. He appealed to District and was successful.

 

If you dig in your heels, be prepared to be overturned on appeal...Councils don't like bad PR. I would have a chat with the District Advancement Chair to guage how the winds are blowing.

[OldGreyEagle]

Lets see, the scout has been in the position for over 12 months, and he was never removed, he has fulfilled the requirement. The scout should have been removed before the time was up. You may have counseled the lad, and cajoled him to do better, but on the books he has been in the position for 6 months and that is all an appeals panel will look at.

 

Rumors are rumors and until proven, they are nothing.

 

Was he a gung ho scout prior to making Life? Could anything in his personal life have changed to account for such a radical change in behavior?

[FScouter]

Part of what the SM might think about is why it was OK for a Scout to hold a position for 1 year without doing the work. It's not a government job you know.

[cheffy]

his POR was scribe. Let's face it, it's not the most sought after POR. Due to Troop size we did not have a replacement for quite awhile. We kept him in the position until something better came along. Yeah I probably should have yanked him out of it early on but you always want to feel that there is hope for a change.

[Gunny2862]

Unless you have other requirements you can qualitatively point to and say he didn't meet, it sounds like you are stuck with "Scout Spirit" or a lack thereof to keep you from recommending him to a EBOR.

If he has been in the POR for the required time you can't deny him credit for the position now, regardless of how poorly he did it. If a Scout isn't doing the job you have to pull him off of the job before he completes his time in order to deny the credit for the POR.

 

If you feel he isn't an Eagle Scout candidate, then do the right thing and stand up and take the heat - because it will come. And as has been stated before you will most likely be overturned on appeal. And of course you can always pass him on to the EBOR and hope they see what you see and don't pass him - but if you really don't feel like he is an Eagle candidate then what example are you sending by not standing up?

 

This is a tough one but you are the last individual gatekeeper before the EBOR and just as it was your responsibility to give him every opportunity to proceed and succeed in the program, I think it is occasionally your responsibility to say no. But in that no should be an explicit truth telling of what he can do to rectify the situation with clear metrics the Scout can do. And if it is too late then recount all of the opportunities you gave him to fix it earlier. If there isn't time to fix the problems and let him proceed this may best be done in writing if you expect your decision to have any chance of holding up on review.

Even in the denial of your signature on moving to the next step should be a lesson on the responsibility he has/had towards others and himself in doing what ever you are saying he lacks.

 

Of course you can't in reality deny him the SM conference because your meeting with him to discuss this will BE a SM conf. And then he goes to the EBOR...

 

Good luck, I hope I don't wind up in your shoes. (knocking on wooden head)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Scoutmaster Ron]

You say that you've had several conversations with him about the scout not taking his POR seriously.

 

Were you specific in what you were looking for?

[scoutingagain]

I'm afraid I tend to agree with OGE. If the candidate can truthfully put on his application he served a scribe from such and such a date to another and it adds up to six months, in the eye's of BSA national, he's fulfilled the requirement and any denial of advancement based on your subjective opinion will be overturned. If he was doing such a bad job, he should have been removed.

 

I agree the rumor is rumor. That's it.

 

About the only thing I can see you doing is to get the scout himself to admit he has not done a good job as Scribe and needs to serve a few more months doing all the things he was coached on before he is ready to submit himself as a candidate for Eagle scout.

 

SA

[Beavah]

Yah, our mission is to teach character, not give out paper awards, eh?

 

Yeh do what you need to do to help a lad grow up to be an honorable man, and to learn. Yeh don't worry if other levels of the BSA won't support that mission. That's their choice. Yeh do what's right with your choice.

 

Is this a lad you want to hold up to other boys and to the community as bein' worthy of the highest recognition your program gives out? Is that the example yeh want to set for the younger scouts comin' up?

 

Can't deal with the rumor, though yeh never know if a BOR member would bring it up. But yeh can deal with da behavior you've seen.

 

Your SM should honestly self-evaluate, too... does he think Scribe, as set up in your program, is the right POR for a Life Scout? Is the job description reasonable? Was the lad given training and coaching along the way? The SM should be able to approach this with "clean hands" so to speak.

 

Then he should sit down with the lad and be clear that in order to get his approval for Eagle Scout, serving actively in a position of responsibility for six months is required. Clock starts (again) now.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

You've been given a lot of pretty solid advice already. Like others, I agree on the rumor.

 

Three items:

 

- You need to procure and read the 2007 (or 08, if it's out) edition of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088. If you and your SPL do not have a solid record of recording this Scouts' performance, saying it's not to standard, and coaching him to change, you will as stated almost certainly be overturned on appeal. Also, if you elect not to give the Scout an advancement Scoutmaster Conference, or you refuse to sign off on the Eagle application, you are obligated to inform the Scout of the appeal procedures.

 

- You need to visit with your District Advancement Chair. Today. He needs to know what's coming down the pike. If he appeals, you can expect the entire matter to be taken from your hands.

 

- Quality of performance in the POR is yours and the SPLs job. Take a look at yourself in the mirror, and resolve you will deal with Scouts throughout their tenures, and keep the kids on the good path.

[CalicoPenn]

Serve 6 months in a POR (as listed in the handbooks - despite what some may want to be true, Scribe is listed in the handbook as an eligible POR for Eagle Scout). He's served 12. He's met the requirement, even if you don't think he did a good job. The time for those corrections are before the 6 months are up, not after. He met that requirement after the first 6 months, and didn't need to serve any POR since then. Deny him based on performance of the job and the Scout will likely be the victor on an appeal (the BSA is very careful about not setting standards of how one must serve - they consider someone in the position for 6 months, even if they did nothing, as having served). And no, you cannot "start the clock again" with new performance metrics. He's served, its done - move on.

 

Have an SM Conference - if you refuse to do so, he can go to District to bypass you and your Troop Committee altogether. Be cautious about not signing off on "Scout Spirit". That's a highly subjective category and you will need a better explanation that "He hardly ever showed up" for such a denial to be upheld on appeal.

 

 

You shouldn't base any decisions on a rumor that you've heard. Unless the Scout is announcing it himself, it's all heresay. Be cautious if you're thinking of asking him about the rumor. In fact, don't even ask about it - you'll just be giving him the one magic bullet that will make an appeal a slam dunk - all he has to do is tell Council that he was subject to a rumor and feels that this rumor was the cause of his denial.

 

If you truly feel you cannot be party to this lad moving on to the next step in his quest for Eagle, you should talk to the District Advancement Chair and let him/her know you can no longer be impartial and ask what can be done.

 

Calico

 

[Eagledad]

>>There is also the rumor that he has gotten some girl pregnant.

Not my most stellar Scout.

[SR540Beaver]

First things first. Is the requirement signed off on in his book? If it is, you've already stated that he has met the requirement. If it isn't signed, don't sign it and tell him why and what is expected of him to meet the requirement. One other note is to tell him that a scout is trustworthy and ask him if he honestly feels he fulfilled the requiement. He might surprise you by admitting he has not. This opens the door to discussing how he can. At the end of the day, he has to be comfortable that the eagle he wears was actually earned.

[evmori]

SR540Beaver makes some good points. The only glitch I see is if it's been over 6 months & the requirement isn't signed & you haven't told him what your expectations are, then it should be signed.