Merit Badge Reqs at Camporees

[Sylvar]

Hi All, I haven't posted here in a long time, but I figure this would be a good place to have this question answered.

 

My Den just crossed over to the local troop and we went to our first camporee with them. I was curious to see what the dynamic would be. I am a life long scouter, but I don't want to go into this troop stepping on toes. I offered my services to the ScoutMaster (who I knew from his time in the Pack)as Advancment Chair and apparently opened a can of worms. He seems to hold several beliefs about the merit badge program that I disagree with...Some of which I can now prove are mistaken, but others I can't find any clear-cut information on.

 

How are Merit Badge Reqs fulfilled at Camporees handled? We were handed a list of the reqs the boys had completed at the camporee, but he said they can't actually use them unless they had previously started the merit badges and their counselors were present to recognize the work....in other words the boy who just crossed over could not use the activites at the camporee to fulfill merit badge reqs.

 

I have similar question in regards to thing that take place on troop outings. For example- Does the MBC have to be present on the 30 mile hike needed for Backpacking MB for it to count? I have a hard time believing that to be the case.

 

Yours in Scouting

[jr56]

No, the merit badge counselor does not have to be present for a completed activity to "count". The verification that the requirement was completed (note from scoutmaster, word of honor from the scout, etc) is entirely at the discretion of the merit badge counselor.

[leamm]

>>>and their counselors were present to recognize the work

[Sylvar]

What about the first half... Do they have to have started the MB (Meaning formally contacted a MBC) before an event for the activities to count? Is there any documentation out there in this regard? I am not going to be able to change his mind without clear documentation. I read through all the MBC training material before I posted the question here and saw nothing that nswered this question.

 

I bring that point up mostly because I remember my days as a scout. On more than one occasion being introduced to some topic at a scouting event and becoming interested in it. I would check to see what I had already done at the event and take the steps needed to complete the MB....a course of action which the current SM clearly does not approve of.

 

Thanks Again!

 

 

[Lisabob]

That bit is at the discretion of the MBC, but the way the process is supposed to work, is that the scout is supposed to get a blue card (assuming your council uses these) and the name of the MBC from the SM and contact the MBC prior to starting work on a MB. MBCs may choose to allow work done prior to this to "count" but they are not required to do so. Consequently, I think your SM could be correct here, or at the very least, that he's attempting to save "his" scouts from grief by asking them to stick to procedure.

 

It might not be a bad idea to see if there is a merit badge counselor training offered by your district training staff in the near future. That way you could brush up on rules that may have changed, or been applied differently, since your youth experience. While you're thinking about it, consider doing the same for BOR training if it is offered. These are probably two of the most contentious items an advancement chair has to deal with and lots of headaches can be avoided if the adults are all on the same page.

 

 

[Sylvar]

Yes, I am in a council that uses blue cards. I have been making every effort to get training. When we moved up I told the SM that I was willing to help out where ever he needed it. He asked me to be a Merit Badge Counselor. The training isn't scheduled any where but I found the Training Materials online as well as the instructors materials. Both were quite informative and answered several of the questions I had.

Can you point me to the documentation that spells out that protocol? It seems odd to me that a scout would be denied a req he had completed at a district scouting event. Why even publish the reqs covered after the fact if that were a hard rule. Of course that is what is at issue, gray areas. SM sees things in black and white with no room for interpretation....and some things in scouting are that way. However, there are things in scouting that are gray and in my mind the you don't penalize the scouts for that.

I think the main reason I am taking a stance on this rather than just sayin "well, thats how that Troop works" is that I don't see a focus on advancement. Most of the boys that crossed over last year are still wearing their Scout Rank...now I don't know if this is because they haven't earned tenderfoot or if they haven't been handed their ranks yet, but after a year any active scout (and I know these boys went to summer camp) should be beating down the door of first class.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Sylvar,

 

As it happens, there's lots of info supporting the MB program at the national website:

 

http://www.scouting.org/media/factsheets/02-500.aspx overview page...

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/merit%20badge%20counselor%20instructors%20guide.aspx That's the instructor guide for the MBC training module...

 

http://old.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-125/18-125.pdf (same as above as a pdf)

 

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors.aspx

The Guide for MBCs, which includes

FAQ http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/FAQ.aspx

 

Rank Advancement overview: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx

 

Resources:

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/Resources.aspx

NOTE BSA REQURIEMENTS #33215 is fully online...

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards.aspx

 

Merit Badge Review

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/Review.aspx

 

To your specific question:

 

As a Counselor, I like to meet my Scout and say "Time zero is now." I will take significant "do this" requirements, such as the required trips for Cit in Nation, usually because the youth has much to tell about his trip. That said, I refused one kid who was trying to have me accept a visit when he was Tiger to the local police station ... that was too much a stretch.

 

I don't like being told "here's an automatic list" because quality of the work, and quality of the training before the work, can be rather uneven. MBs are part of the Adult Association Method, along with the Advancement Method. I've seen one too many "pencil whips" to take a wholesale list any longer.

 

Have fun on the trail

[fgoodwin]

As others have said, a MBC does not have to accept partials completed at a camporee, summer camp, under another MBC, or elsewhere.

 

But having said that, I have to ask: who authorized your boys to work on MBs at the camporee? If your SM authorized them to do this, then I'd say he (or she) waived any right to object that he (or she) hadn't previously signed a blue card and assigned an MBC.

 

That really sounds kinda ticky-dot to me . . .

[Sylvar]

Thanks for the links John. To your point about not wanting to have to accept a wholesale list....shouldn't that be your choice and not the SM?

 

fgoodwin, to your point - No one. The camporee was greared towards a particular setof MBs and any boy who had participated in an earlier event knew that certain topics would be covered and used for MB completion.

[John-in-KC]

Sylvar,

 

If the individual Scout comes to a MBC and says "I did that at Camporee", maybe or maybe not the MBC will buy it.

 

If the SM refuses to give a Scout a laundry list which says "Every Scout did this, this, and this...", well, my opinion is that's within the SM's discretion as the principal Program officer of the Troop.

 

Remember, we can only work with the facts as each poster writes them. From my perspective, your SM is trying to keep his Troop from being a Merit Badge Mill by accepting bulk work. I'm ready to say Hip Hip HURRAH! for that

[scottteng]

As an ASM and MB counselor it depends on the badge and the requirement. As an ASM I will not even sign a Camping MB blue card until a scout has his 20 nights on the troop's books they have eliminated the non scouting camping from consideration. I do not expect the camping MB counselor to camp with the scout I will give the scout a letter certifying his tent nights, open air nights,cabin nights and long term nights. As a Rifle MB counselor if they bring me 5 qualifying targets achieved at a camporee, troop shoot or wherever I am going to count those toward their MB. If the requirement is clear and specific it should count "fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score ". If the requirement is nebulous ie "Discuss with your counselor these three aspects of emergency preparedness" I see no problem with making the scout do it again after all there is no pass/fail invoked in the requirement it is simply a discussion.

[Sylvar]

John and Scott,

I think we are mostly in agreement. I agree that the reqs should be specific and verifiable. No qualms with that what so ever. I do think that the ultimate question of if work should be accepted or not falls to the MBC not the SM. To use scottteng's example, if a scout has his 5 targets and the SM knows they were fairly shot (not altered) I don't think he has a right to keep the scout from submitting them to the MBC.

 

 

Thanks guys. I think I have my answers.

 

[Gags]

Sylvar, I realize you may have already found your answer, but it seems like you're giving to much credence to the role the SM has in the MB process.

 

Yes, they sign the blue card (and there's been some debate at this step as well as to whether the SM can really limit who the Scout chooses as a MBC, but that's another topic).

 

But completing the requirements is between the Scout and the MBC. If the Scout needs a list from the SM to tell him which requirements he's completed at a recent camporee - is the scout really ready to work on a MB? He should be able to read the requirements, and tell the counselor "yes, at the camporee last month, we participated in a camp-wide emergency preparedness drill", or "last month, I helped hang orienteering markers for the afternoons orienteering competition".

 

I'm speaking from the land of assumption, but I'm fairly certain none of the links above will contain the wording: "A scout can only satisfy requirements after he's contacted a MBC / after a blue card is signed, etc". Nor will you find the statement "requirements completed at any time while Scouting must be accepted by the MBC", which seems to be the only way to appease your SM.

 

To make a long answer longer - here's a sentence from the MBC Instructors Guide: "The counselor suggests that the Scout bring the merit badge pamphlet, the Application for Merit Badge, and any work that he has started or accomplished, and that he prepare by reading over the requirements." (my emphasis) This clearly implies that there are some cases where work has been done before hand.

 

Another way to look at it - there are only a few requirements that begin "while a XXX Scout", such as the Eagle Project: "while a Life Scout...". I've never seen a MB requirement that says "once a blue card is in hand, spend 20 nights campings, attend a city council meeting, etc."

 

Lastly - I realize you may just be using this as a hypothetical, but you stated: "if a scout has his 5 targets and the SM knows they were fairly shot (not altered) I don't think he has a right to keep the scout from submitting them to the MBC." Does your SM usually collect all the targets? Was this after a troop shoot? I would think most Scouts would just hold onto their targets after they replaced them. Just not sure how exactly the SM could prevent a scout from submitting them to the MBC.

 

Best of luck with your new position.

 

Gags

 

[Sylvar]

"The counselor suggests that the Scout bring the merit badge pamphlet, the Application for Merit Badge, and any work that he has started or accomplished, and that he prepare by reading over the requirements."

 

THANK YOU SIR! That is exactly what I was looking for.

 

I agree completely. Its between the MBC and the scout, not the SM. The targets hypothesis was just me building off of the example given by another poster.

 

There were two primary points the SM and I disagreed on (this wasn't an arguement mind you, just a discussion about some finer points of advancement).

1) How long a completed req was good for.

He claimed it was 6 - 12 months, I did not think that was the case. I have found documentation (in the same document that you are referencing) that a completed req is good until a scout turns 18.

 

2) Whether or not a scout had to contact a MBC before starting a Merit Badge. He said a MBC would not accept work started beforehand, again I did not believe that to be the case.

 

Thanks again!

 

Yours in Scouting

[Gags]

I'm really not trying to keep this thread open just to get "last post" honors - but in defence of the SM - I believe at one point there was a limit on how long a partial was good for. A quick google search didn't help me find anything stating this, though. The "partials are good until age 18" (if accepted by the MBC, of course)rule has been around since at least the mid-'80s. So your SM may either have been going off an outdated rule, or an outdated scouting myth.

 

Either way, you said you already had the answer - just wanted to point out that at one point in the distant past, it could have been a valid rule.

 

Gags