Boy Does Not Camp, SM Okay with Advancement

[MarkS]

I've spun this off from the BOR rant thread because I have a potentail BOR controversy brewing...

 

 

There's a boy getting close to making First Class. First Class is the rank our unit has chosen as a prerequisite for PLs in regular patrols. The boy doesn't camp because his mother is overprotective and won't allow him to go camping unless his dad goes too. Unfortunately, his dad is not really interested in camping. The boy never met the overnight camping requirements for Tenderfoot or Second Class. Our Scoutmaster was of the opinion, it was more important to allow the boy to advance and keep him interested in the program while working with his mother to allow him more freedom in camping. Why punish the boy because of the parent...

 

However, I feel that a boy must participate in troop activities in order to be an effective PL and that it would be unfair to his patrol to allow him to potentailly be elected PL by advancing him to First Class until he has more experience. Why punish the patrol because of the boy's parent... The needs of the many, outweight the needs of the few or the one...

 

I suppose this my concern for the patrol can be mitigated if they don't elect him as PL. They've already elected one boy who missed every outing/activity and half the troop meetings during his tenure because of Soccer season. Maybe they learned their lesson.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[evmori]

So what you are saying is this Scout didn't complete all the requirements for Tenderfoot & 2nd Class but the Scoutmaster signed him off anyway? How did this get past BOR's for those ranks?

 

I would say it's time to stop the fraud.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[thebigguy]

sounds like the SM maybe taking to many libritys with the advancement requierments. seems to me that telling the mom he eather camps or dosent advance would be the quicker way to get the kid in the woods. maybe she should go to, see what its all about, just for the first campout anyways.

 

as far as PL goes that is why he has to be elected. if the patrol would elect him they may have been doomed from the start. the hardest part is reminding them its not a popularity contest and he will actuly need to work for them...owell we let them make there own mistakes and they learn from them.

 

......hopefuly

[Lisabob]

Sounds like it is time for the advancement chair and the committee chair to have a sit-down with the SM and re-explain how the advancement process works. Aside from the fact that the SM does not have the authority to make these changes to the requirements, let's consider the longer-term implications of such alterations.

 

What will happen when this boy goes for Eagle? Is that the point at which the SM will suddenly decide the requirements need to be met? Or is he going to continue to perpetuate this fraud all the way through to the highest rank a boy can earn in scouting? If the council or district are at all involved in EBORs (as they are in many places), how will they react to such obvious fraud? Who will suffer then? Is that fair to the boy? And how does this really help the boy build better citizenship and character, whether he gets to Eagle or not? This boy is being short-changed on numerous levels. And why would any of the other boys in the troop respect either this scout, or the SM, in the future? The message here is loud and clear, and it isn't good.

 

To say that this practice should be stopped as soon as possible is putting things mildly. Actually stopping it may be more difficult and will require someone with some backbone to help the SM understand, and then rectify, the error he has made.

[jr56]

Yes, this fraud needs to be stopped now. Ignoring requirements that have not been met, and allowing the boy to advance to rank that he hasn't earned is not doing anybody any good.

[Stosh]

Maybe this is why bending the rules to accommodate the boys isn't such a good idea. If one does bend the rules, he had better have thought it through to the end. If this boy becomes PL does that mean his dad will in fact run the patrol and decide when and where their outings will be so his wife won't have restless nights?

 

This has train wreck written all over it.

 

Stosh

[raisinemright]

If the scout or his parents aren't going to go along with the program, who says he needs to advance. Maybe he's happy at 2nd class.

 

The SM should have some say over whether or not a boy is eligible to run for PL. This scout ('s parents) is disqualified for PL by nature of his inability to camp. On the surface, it's a hard stand to take, in reality, it's very easy.

 

We had a scout in our Pack who just moved on to a new troop. His mom would not allow him anywhere without her or his dad. His dad works some weird hours so he's not usually available. She does go often and has already been on his first campout. I suspect she'll loosen up over time. That encouragement needs to be extended to this scouts mom so that she'll come to the uderstanding that her job in life is to allow her children to grow, become independent and thrive without her.

[Venividi]

two additional items for thought:

 

The rest of the scouts see what the "real" requirements are for the troop, which may result in one or more of the following: Other scouts putting in less effort, because they see that it is not valued by the adults - they approve advancement anyway. Other scouts needling/teasing the boy about him being a "special" case (out of sight of the adults). Loss of value of advancement, because it no longer means anything.

 

Depending on the patrol, the boy may get elected PL not based on popularity, but because being PL is seen as extra work in an environment where that extra work does not receive recognition. After all, a culture is being built where awards are not connected with accomplishments.

[John-in-KC]

Methinks it's time for the Scoutmaster and the Committee Chair to get on the same sheet of music... and it should be the one that says BSA Requirements Matter.

 

THEN...

 

SM/CC probably should visit with Mom and Dad. Our program is designed for the outdoors. This young man needs some access to independence.

 

What's going to happen when he's 19 and on his own at college?

 

I agree heartily with the other posters in this thread!

[MarkS]

Wow, those were some brutal responses and in looking at my original post it is obvious that left out some important details. Sorry about that.

 

First, let's be clear that the SM at the time (he's now our CC but the SM and SAs, myself included, still go to him for advice) perfectly understands the advancement requirements and how the process works. He is an Eagle Scout and 30 year scouter having held the SM and CC positions at several troops, Wood Badger including staff, Silver Beaver award recipient, a Vigil member of the O/A, and has been district training chair, district fundraising chair, NYLT program chair, et al, et al. The guy knows his stuff. I'm the new guy.

 

The SPL signed off that the boy completed the requirement. However, it was clear to the adults that he really did not complete the requirement. Sometimes in a boy-run program, we let them suffer the consequences of their mistakes.

 

At the time, it was a judgement call of the SM who advised the board to put the higher priority on the aims of scouting instead of the methods of scouting in an attempt to keep the boy motivated and interested in the program while we tried to convince mom that dad didn't have to go camping with little Johnny at each and every campout Johnny wanted to attend. I was on that board and was the last to be convinced that we should advance the boy. If the guy didn't have a backbone, I wouldn't have changed my mind.

 

In the end it was decided that holding the boy back because of his mom is so protective was not representative of the ideals of scouting. We figured that if we were successful, little Johnny would have no problem catching up on his camping requirements because we camp almost every month and provide a program with about 20 nights of camping a year (including Summer Camp).

 

Some good did come out of this so it can't be said that this didn't do anyone any good. The boy is still in the program learning valuable life lessons and skills, working on merit badges, etc. His dad has brought him to a couple campouts even though they camped overnight at just one of them. It's likely that none of this would have been accomplished if we focused on the just the advancement method instead of the big picture. At the time it was a compromise for the greater good. The boy would have really been short-changed if we allowed him to become bored from a lack of opportunities and quit.

 

Unfortunately, mom still hasn't come around despite a visit and several ono-on-one chats. Until she does the boy will rarely camp because dad rarely does. Now he's getting close to completing First Class where his lack of participation has a greater chance of adversely affecting the boys in his patrol. I noticed after our last troop meeting that the current SPL (different that the first one) has signed off on his camping requirements for First Class which I know to not be the case.

 

I agree the big stall is coming to an end. We've done what was best for the boy, now we need to do what's best for his patrol. My path forward will be to talk to the current SM and suggest that we use our questions at the SMC and BOR (if there is one) to have the boy recognize that he does not meet the camping requirements and have him use the ideals of scouting to admit that he has more work to do before he's ready to advance. If we can get the boy thinking the way we're thinking, he's more likely to advance in the future. If this works, all the more vindication for the original course of action. A boy following the ideals of scouting to make a choice.

 

Again, I'm really sorry I misled you all to believing that he has never camped with the troop when I said he doesn't camp when in fact he has attended a two campouts (one last year, one this year) with one night of camping.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[thebigguy]

I respect the scoutmasters experiance. but if he knows his stuff, then he knows that they are not sugested requierments, they are requierd requierments. as for judgment calls its true we have all probubly made a few. and im sorry if this comes off bad, the board made the wrong desition and you should have held your ground and not been convinced.

 

passing this scout is not helping anyone. all it has done is:

 

-show the spl that he can sign off what ever he wants even if the work is not done.

-show the boy that mommy will always be there to protect him.

-show mommy that the rules dont aply to her.

-show the other scouts that the requierments are more like guidelines ment to be broken.

-show the world that scouting realy is not as upstanding and outdoor orented as we clame.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Mark,

 

Several thoughts. Where I ask questions below, they aren't for return comment, but as rhetorical questions to be answered within your unit Scouter leadership:

 

1) We have only the information you give us. The more information we have, the better we can tailor our feedback.

 

2) There are 2d and 3d order consequences to actions. You said "to put the higher priority on the aims of scouting instead of the methods of scouting". Ok, now, how does the Character Development aim get served when the young man bypasses the Personal Growth method by being Disobedient to the requirements for advancement?

 

3) The actions of the adults vis a vis this one Scout will shoot through the Troop faster than Superman's bullet. You've lowered the bar for advancement from the standard of "Do Not Add To, Do Not Take From." How does the Scoutmaster, or the next BOR deal with Scout Billy when he comments "Why do I have to pass the swim test? You allowed Jake not to go camping?" How do you deal with that when a non-Scouter parent objects to you? How do you deal when the District Commissioner asks to buy you a cup of coffee and tells you there's a parent complained to the Scout Executive about the double standard in Troop 123?

 

4) How will you deal with the situation venividi proposes, which ends up challenging the Citizenship aim and the Leadership Development method, when Bobby says "But you let..."?

 

You've made a judgment call. We all do. What's done is done, and cannot be undone. I really do hope none of the possibilities above confront you while Billy continues his path up the trail from where he is now. From my experience in my part of the world, I'm betting one of them will confront you and your fellow Scouters, sooner than later.

[thebigguy]

he can eurn merit badges and learn life lessons at tenderfoot to. sounds like maybe thats where he realy belongs?

[John-in-KC]

TBG:

 

Once recorded at Council into ScoutNet, there's no going back. Sigh.

[thebigguy]

i know , but it was worth saying. its just like the high school kids who cant do long division. who are we realy helping?