Eagle Board of Review and God Take 2

[packsaddle]

Eagledad is of the opinion that 'reverent' is of no more importance than 'thrifty'...or have I misinterpreted this? Evidently I missed BSA's Declaration of Thriftiness Principle.

Anyway as Eagledad says, "I am an atheist" is the answer that is actionable. If we are to, as Eagledad says, treat "thrifty equal to reverent in a BOR", and if "I am an atheist" is grounds for failure or dismissal, then a boy's failure to be thrifty should warrant an equally decisive response, right?

Quick survey...

How many of us think that all boys are, in fact, thrifty? I see no hands. Anyone know of a boy who's been failed or ejected because he is not thrifty? No hands again.

[Trevorum]

pack, this is one of those occasions when I'm gonna disagree with you and side with Barry. Your argument is a straw man. No one has ever suggested (officially, AFAIK) that all 12 points carry equal weight in character development. That would be foolishness. In fact, don't we all like to ask candidates the favorite question: "Which point is most important" (to them), thereby implicitly implying that there is some inherent inequality of importance. I do belive that many Scouts and Scouters would honestly say that Reverent is the most important point. That's fine; I disagree (favoring Trustworthy, myself), but it's a subjective question.

[packsaddle]

Trevorum, I think it was Barry who made the argument for equivalence. Here's what he wrote: "If you are not treating thrifty equal to reverent in a BOR, or any other question for that matter, then there is a problem."

 

Although I agree with him, I think many of us consider these concepts to be unequal and it was my intent to demonstrate that inequality. I think you are disagreeing with his statement.

 

Edited part: I'm not sure about that 'straw man' characterization. Maybe, but it's not my 'straw man' but rather one belonging to BSA. And your admission of subjectivity is one element of the weakness of the inequality...these points are either of equal importance as several of us have argued, or they are not. But if they are not of equal importance, there is no guidance whatsoever as to what the priorities are and we are left with all permutations of priority...again supported by 'equally' good subjective opinions. Or is it simply a popularity contest?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[evmori]

All points of the Scout Law should be treated equally. Thrifty the same a kind. Obedient the same as trustworthy. Reverent the same as brave. This has nothing to do with the DRP and trying to make it so is just flaming on!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Trevorum]

pack, ahh - you're right. So much for speed reading

[Eagledad]

>>Although I agree with him, I think many of us consider these concepts to be unequal and it was my intent to demonstrate that inequality.

[packsaddle]

Eagledad, I salute your imagination as well. I wrote that "many", not "most" (your invention), consider these concepts unequally. I have no idea what are the views of a majority of scouters. Do you, really?

 

I support my assertion by noting that BSA has singled out 'reverent' for special consideration and no other point of the law. Or am I wrong?

If, as you claim, scouters view 'reverent' as a "gimme", then what was the need for BSA to issue the DRP? After all, in your view it should have been a "gimme".

 

I also support my assertion by noting Trevorum's (and others) direct observations in BORs as well as my own BOR experiences.

You are free to dismiss my comparison of 'thrifty' to 'reverent' as silly. I happen to think, however, that 'thrifty' is an important concept. Just as important as the rest. Nothing silly about it.

 

In anticipation that OGE will respond with an anecdote about his BOR, they asked me about 'thrifty' too! (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[OldGreyEagle]

Way back in 1969 I faced an Eagle Board of Review, I don't remember much about it, it was in a church basement a few town over from where I lived. I do remember being asked how I was thrifty so as far back as 1969 somebody was asking thrifty questions

 

Holy Prescience Batman !(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

[Beavah]

Yah, pack, gotta agree with EagleDad here, eh?

 

Just seems like this has got your goat because it's a personal issue for you as an adult.

 

I just have never seen it bein' an issue for kids. Buddhist and Hindu and unchurched lads respond to "God" questions from Christian board members typically without missin' a beat. They don't take offense. They talk about this stuff all the time with their friends. And we BOR adults are just older friends, right?

 

Yah, yah, we've all seen an occasional twit as a board member, or just a board member who wasn't good talkin' to kids. But in my experience those types are far more likely to get hung up and persnickety about some detail of the project or another, or perhaps their own favorite Law point (I remember one who got all worked up about "Loyal"...).

 

Da BSA has extra language like the DRP on those things they've been challenged on so that they are a bit more clear to outsiders and folks who are joinin', and have more documentation to contest a challenge. I reckon if some families had their kids refuse to agree to be Thrifty and take the BSA to court over that, then we'd eventually see a "Declaration of Thriftyness."

 

But that's all weird adult behaviors, eh? Like worryin' about whether the use of "God" as a word is gonna be offensive to someone who worships Allah or Jehovah. Kids are more mature about such things than adults are. They care about what we mean.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

Hey Beavah, Yeah I do take personal matters very seriously...BUT (don't mention this to anyone else) speaking of holy prescience, heh, heh, I happen to sense that Rooster7 is lurking out there and about to be reincarnated (oops, I guess that's a Hindu thing?)...so I'm also trying to get his blood pressure up so that when he finally breaks the spell, he'll be fully charged and ready to go.

And let me tell you what...we're going to have some fun! But gotta go just now, I think I see a frog that needs a kiss.

 

Edited part: As long as I can edit this to respond I might as well...Trevorum's next post is right on. I shudder to think this has something to do with being in the 'Bible Belt' but I also understand Trevorum's concerns from personal observations. This is a concern for every BOR if the boy is NOT a member of some 'mainstream' flavor of Christianity in the area.

 

Beavah, there are more of them down here as well. And...grits are gooooooooood!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Trevorum]

Beav,

As always, your level-headed practicality is pursuasive. However, even you allow for the "occasional twit". And I gotta tell you, those folks can do a LOT of damage before they are stopped by us level-headed folks. I've seen it. I have confronted well-meaning Scouters who are passionately but mistakenly convinced that BSA is a Judeo-Christian organization (and, grudgingly on the "Judeo-" part) and that Scouts MUST accept their version of God in order to pass a Board of Review. It wasn't pretty. I believe that education and training can prevent these situations.

[Beavah]

Yah, Trev, there are occasional twits, or just volunteers havin' a bad day. Like I said, I've never really had a Reverent Twit. One Loyal Twit. I think there was a Courteous Twit. Mostly they've been Project Twits.

 

And twit really isn't fair. Good guys, just not ones who should be doin' review boards. I usually introduce 'em to da Finance Committee.

 

Now perhaps there are regionalisms. Many of my neighbors would claim that twits are like cockroaches... they get bigger as yeh go South.

 

[Ducking and runnin' for cover... and really jokin' for all you grit-eaters out there!] :)

 

Beavah

 

[TAHAWK]

Is it not true that the BSA has had to spend extra time on the "Clean" point as well?

 

I think Beavah nailed it. Get massively attacked on one of your values and you spend time explaining (NOT explaining away)and defending that value.

 

(And reincarnation is very much a Buddhist "thing" as well.)

[thebigguy]

although I can not agree that the 12 points are not taken at an equel importance. A God question is compleatly exeptable. as everyone else has forgoten let me remind you that a scout pledges his honor to do his duty to god.

 

 

now as for what "god" meens im cathlic so I know what it meens to me, but I think its different to everyone.

 

these days it seems as though the BSA has widend its stance to almost anything as long as the boy has some kind of beleif.

 

remember, its only atheists and sack ticklers that we are suppost to be agenst.

 

watch out for the "known or avoud" cuse she takes no prisoners