Eagle Board of Review and God Take 2

[Vicki]

I'll second WAKWIB's comments. My followon thought is the wonderful addition to my own context that this board provides. The two troops in two different districts that I've served have, for the troops, excellent EBOR prep - none of our Eagle candidates would be surprised to be asked the questions posed here in whatever form. At the district level, same comment - if the prospective Eagle attends the Life to Eagle seminar (I have) then, again, no surprises.

 

That this is a surprise to some expanded my context a bit. Thanks.

 

Vicki

[Beavah]

Yah, seems like da "none of your business" answers could be used as a response to a lot of questions, eh?

 

How are you Trustworthy? To whom or what are you Loyal?

 

Christian types might take the words of Jesus to heart, and when giving alms "not let the right hand know what the left is doing." So a question about "How are you Helpful?" might be properly greeted with "that's personal, and between me and Him who sees what I do in private."

 

Is it Courteous to brag about oneself and talk about how Courteous you have been? A lad might say, "I'm sorry, but I don't think it's appropriate to respond to that."

 

School records and other records of learning and such are even legally protected as private. Is "how have you kept yourself mentally awake?" a fair question?

 

 

Personally, I think all the questions are fair, provided they're asked of a friend by a group of (older) friends, eh? In that context, they're an opportunity for a lad to give witness, not to cast his pearls before swine. If they aren't bein' asked by a group of friends, well, then we're probably not doin' our jobs.

 

As a district/council review member, I've only rarely seen an unfriendly tone at an EBOR, and sadly it tends to be the district/council folks rather than the unit folks who do that. Best to find other ways for 'em to volunteer, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

Beavah, I agree that antagonism at a BOR has been rare in my experience. But that one time....wow, it was a doozy (sorry, technical term).

 

Your comparison of the god question to questions about other points such as 'loyal' or 'thrifty' is interesting. It implies that you think 'thrifty' is equivalent to 'reverent' and yet I know of no boy or adult who has ever been rejected, ejected, or failed simply for not being 'thrifty'. The boys are quite aware of the 'hot buttons' we recognize as adults and a question about 'thrifty' is not the same as one about 'reverent'.

 

I agree with the sentiment that we need to get the best people to do the reviews. I also see your point about tact. But consider the range of questions available....

The most objective would be something like: "Define 'reverence'". It's just like an exam question and the answer could be totally unrelated to personal belief. No more threatening than, "Define 'thrifty'." But the answer might be the gateway to discussion - it depends on the answer. The next question could be, "What are some of the ways that people can express 'reverence'?" Again, this is still abstract, not personal, but it allows another opportunity for the boy to explain any thoughts he wants to share.

If the boy volunteers examples of 'reverence' that involve him, I could see questions regarding how he feels about the things he has shared.

 

But the god question in the parent thread crosses the line. BSA made the god issue a 'hot button' and I recognize the inflammatory nature of the question. It assumes way too much and is almost impossible to answer satisfactorily...and it isn't in any way similar to a question about thrift. But who knows, maybe BSA will kick someone out someday for getting in over his head with credit card debt. It'll make for a whole new line of threads in these forums.

 

Edited part: for the sake of clarity, here (again) is the question from the parent thread:

"What do you think of a Eagle board of review that dares to ask the scout if he believes in a god?"(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[evmori]

How does the God question cross the line? It my opinion, it doesn't. Asking a Scout if he believes in God is a valid question.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Ed, could you be more specific about what you mean? Are you asking about 'God', the one in Christianity, or do you have some other god in mind?

[scoutingagain]

Ed,

 

I suggest you go back and read TAHAWK's post on the previous page that quotes BSA training material on BORs.

 

SA

[hot_foot_eagle]

But what's the right answer to the Buddhist scout, for example, who doesn't believe in a god in the way that Judeo-Christian faiths do?

 

What if a scout believes in gods - is there still a right answer?

 

The best solution I've seen so far is to ask how a scout shows reverence. Perhaps "Do you believe in God?" could come up during the course of the conversation, but as a lead-in question to the issue of reverence it comes off as too confrontational.

 

There are a very few scouts in my area that aren't Christian, and I worry that they won't get a fair shake at their EBOR, if only because a well-intentioned board might not have a broad enough perspective or be open-minded enough to accept that some faiths are very different from Christianity, and that the job of the EBOR is not to determine a faith's "acceptability" through the lens of of the DRP.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>There are a very few scouts in my area that aren't Christian, and I worry that they won't get a fair shake at their EBOR, if only because a well-intentioned board might not have a broad enough perspective or be open-minded enough to accept that some faiths are very different from Christianity, and that the job of the EBOR is not to determine a faith's "acceptability" through the lens of of the DRP.

[evmori]

Asking a Scout if he believes in God (god for some) is not asking a Scout to define God or interpret God's rules.

[Beavah]

But what's the right answer to the Buddhist scout, for example, who doesn't believe in a god in the way that Judeo-Christian faiths do?

 

Who's lookin' for "right" answers?

 

I've sat boards with many a Buddhist and Hindu scout. Can't say it's ever been an issue. Da kids aren't as dumb or nitpicky as us adults. They know what we mean when we ask about God and reverence, and don't assume we're bein' obtuse. They answer honestly about their beliefs. Works great.

 

Yah, pack, I'm not sure about "Thrifty" eh? But I've been at BOR's where "Trustworthy" was an issue for a lad, and "Courteous" and "Kind." Even one where "Clean" came up, because two of his recommendation letters commented about the lad's foul mouth. And I've certainly seen lads expelled from troops for serious violations of Trust, or Kindness.

 

All these things go together. IMO, it's the adults who get all wrapped up in knots over God questions, not kids.

 

Beavah

 

[Vicki]

Ed wrote, "Asking a Scout if he believes in God (god for some) is not asking a Scout to define God or interpret God's rules. "

 

But Ed, this is an almost uniquely Judeo/Christian way to ask it. A Muslim names God as Allah, a Hindu believes in a pantheon that expresses the creator's attributes, a Buddhist doesn't believe in God (per se), etc. There are Jews who would even have a problem with the question asked this way because they name God Yahweh.

 

So the phrasing of the question this way presupposes a belief set, requiring a response that starts off defensively since the person must then explain, if they are not Christian, what their beliefs are. Much better to ask about how the scout defines reverent, especially since that's the word the 12th point uses. Keeps it all consistent.

 

Vicki

 

[evmori]

Phrase it any way you want! Asking is a Scout believes in God is not crossing the line.(This message has been edited by evmori)

[TAHAWK]

"Phrase it any way you want! Asking [if] . . . a Scout believes in God is not crossing the line."

 

I have to say that if you're certain - certain - that the Scout being reviewed is a Christian, it is hard to see how one could offend with the question suggested.

 

But you can be surprised. I was a BOR member present when a Methodist minister's son was asked, "Describe your belief in God." Turned out he had decided he was Bhuddist (and he was a Bhuddist fifteen years later). He handled it well - better than the BOR. He was used to the reaction. Hard to offend a Bhuddist.

 

If we are not to be guided by the current, written instructions from the Boy Scouts of America, we are left to our own beliefs and values - how "you want," rather than how Boy Scouting, as a movement "wants."

 

So, by parity of reasoning, what's wrong if Scouter Ram opens the topic with: "Joe, you know that the Scout Law closes with, 'A Scout is reverent.' Who is your favorite manifestation of Lord Shiva?"

 

Uncomfortable moment if the Scout follows Vishnu or Shakti or Brahma -- or is a Christian, Jew, pantheist, Zoroastrian, anamist, etc. Probably OK if he's a Bhuddist. Hard to offend a Bhuddist.

 

Or we could follow Vicki's sage guidance.

[Vicki]

Darn, too late to edit! When I look back at what I typed, "There are Jews who would even have a problem with the question asked this way because they name God Yahweh." - The whole point in Judaism is that they don't express the full name of God so I should have said that differently. Sloppy semantics on my part.

 

Thanks, TAHAWK. No reason for me to reply to Ed on this one.

 

Vicki

 

[Eagledad]

>>The boys are quite aware of the 'hot buttons' we recognize as adults and a question about 'thrifty' is not the same as one about 'reverent'.